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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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May 17, 2011 - 02:10pm PT
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David Byrne's version...
Everyone is trying to get to the bar.
The name of the bar, the bar is called Heaven.
The band in Heaven, they play my favorite song.
They play it once again, play it all night long.
Heaven, Heaven is a place
a place where nothing, nothing ever happens.
Heaven, Heaven is a place
a place where nothing, nothing ever happens.
There is a party, everyone is there.
Everyone will leave at exactly the same time.
Its hard to imagine that nothing at all
could be so exciting, could be so much fun.
Heaven, Heaven is a place
a place where nothing, nothing ever happens.
Heaven, Heaven is a place
a place where nothing, nothing ever happens.
When this kiss is over it will start again.
It will not be any different, it will be exactly
the same.
It's hard to imagine that nothing at all
could be so exciting, could be this much fun.
Heaven, Heaven is a place
a place where nothing, nothing ever happens.
Heaven, Heaven is a place
a place where nothing, nothing ever happens.
Heaven and Hell are right here and right now if the concepts has any actual meaning, IMO.
Hawking was certainly in "heaven" when he achieved weghtlessness. You could see the bliss on his face. It wasn't just another day or intellectual experience for him, IMO.
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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May 17, 2011 - 04:01pm PT
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I have learned much over the past three plus years both here on ST and in life. I try no longer to discount out of hand ideas that don't match up with mine. In doing so I've found that the ideas may not connect, but the very thinking about their connections or lack thereof has given me insights into possiblities and ideas I'd never considered or even dreamed of before.
There are key words which contain concepts I'm convinced we've barely tapped the meanings of. Religious and scientific communities alike need to be more open to dialogue for there is so very much more waiting to be discovered.
Right now I've been pondering chaos, creation, energy, the invisible world and the power of words. It's been quite a journey lately, however since my world got rotated a bit I've found real joy in freedom of thought coupled with the cessation of obtaining the material 24/7. Jess sayin'. Cheers, lynnie
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Norwegian
Trad climber
Placerville, California
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May 17, 2011 - 04:02pm PT
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i believe in absolutely nothing,
and run from all loves.
a day, a breath.
my life is little more than untying intimacy’s knot.
careful what you say,
you start to echo your own as#@&%e.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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May 17, 2011 - 04:16pm PT
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I don't believe we have begun to scratch the surface of what dimensions there are "out there" or "in there" or "in here". Our conception of the universe has grown and changed over and over and over. Suggesting there is no "heaven" implies the end of curiousity. The closing off of curiousity, to me, has always been the signpost of a decline of the spark that continually moves us forward. Witness curiosity in a child and one says there is "no heaven?" Crazee talk. I respect Hawking's work a great deal but the reality is he doesn't really know. Susan
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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May 17, 2011 - 05:31pm PT
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He knows a whole fukload more about how the world works than a bunch of desert nomads who talk to burning bushes.
And...exactly how DO you KNOW that?
My dad, an everloving scientist taught me: believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see. In some ways its been very good advice. Kept me asking questions. Susan
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 17, 2011 - 05:35pm PT
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If Heaven is the place good church going, bible reading folks go- I want nothing to do with it.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 17, 2011 - 06:09pm PT
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"Heaven is set upon the earth but men do not see it."
Better to appreciate the joy of life now than live in expectation of what may or may not be.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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May 17, 2011 - 07:17pm PT
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need I go on?
My point exactly....as I said in my first post our conception and reality of the world has changed exponetially over time. For him to say now in 2011 that there is no heaven is certainly not determinative. If you believe all knowledge ends with his proclaimation then you too will be stuck in a world of "what is now" must be the world as it will always be. As I recall from his comments he says something to the effect that there isn't a place for old broken down computers to go. True for computers; for humans, doesn't resonate with me. If he is strictly talking about the pearly gates conception of heaven then I would agree, however, we couldn't see germs and other "invisible to the naked eye" things but it didn't mean they weren't there and eventually science was able to uncover them. Science and scientific instrumentation just hasn't evolved far enough. Susan
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Trad climber
Will know soon
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May 17, 2011 - 07:20pm PT
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Spending time in a building called a church and reading a book called the bible has little bearing on heaven. There are now and have been people without buildings or bibles.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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May 17, 2011 - 07:21pm PT
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my late friend Harvey didn't want to "go to Heaven" in the traditional sense, when asked. He said "I wouldn't know anybody when I got there."
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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May 17, 2011 - 07:35pm PT
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I've always been beset by the notion that our universe is but a snow globe sitting on the dusty shelf of some living room shelf.
Every now and then, the maid gives it a dusting and a bunch of dinosaurs die as a result.
I do know from first hand experience that when death does come for you - very little light is involved. It's mostly a coalescence of sinuous shadows that envelop the space around your body.
We give ourselves more credit for brilliance and self awareness than does the universe.
Hubris has no place in the real world.
Life is actually quite simple.
Live.
Die.
Acceptance is what we find difficult.
I blame the societal "Cult Of Specialness" for the disappointing end result most people experience.
See enough dead people - you realize that we are but a watery sack of meat. Nothing special happens at death other than we die. Sorry, but it's true - ask any paramedic.
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Ricky D
Trad climber
Sierra Westside
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May 17, 2011 - 07:53pm PT
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When you wish upon a star - three things happen...
Nothing.
Nothing.
Disney gets 3 cents in royalties.
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SCseagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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May 17, 2011 - 08:28pm PT
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he still knows a whole fukload more about how the world works than a bunch of illiterate desert nomads.
And 20, 200, 2000 years from now the same will be said about knowing a fukload more about how the world works than when Hawking was alive. If your perspective is how the "world" works as we know the world today then indeed your perspective is critically narrow.
And as for no evidence of after life when holding someone that just died...well yeah, they are there and you are still here.
Susan
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rrrADAM
Trad climber
LBMF
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May 17, 2011 - 08:38pm PT
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Both [God and science] have to be deeply considered and investigated.
"God" has been more deeply investigated throughout the historty of man, than has science. And, there are still many more investigating and persuing an understanding of God, than there are investigating and persuing and understanding of science.
So, what are/were the results?
A myriad of "theories" on God, religion, and Heaven and/or an after-life... Think of all of them (or as many as you can), past and present, most now long gone, and how diverse they are/were. Even today, amongst ther world's largest religions, there are a lot of differing views, some extreme, and even diametrically opposed to each other. There are even substancial differences between many Christian denominations. Nopt much agreement there.
Now, look at science... Pretty much a steady march out of ignorance and superstition into the light of knowledge. Slow at first, even with a few stumbles, but almost sprinting now. Regardless of religious beliefs, or lack there of, there is a lot of agreement among scientists, even lay people, regarding most things "science".
Why? Because science isn't as subjective as religious beliefs. Because, regardless of beliefs, or even how one may want somehting to be, it just is, and if it can be tested, ANYONE performing that test will get the same result. Science is 'repeatable', and it is objective.
In the strictest sense... I am an agnostic concerning the existance of a god (no capital letter). But, I am a staunch atheist as far as a God (capital letter) like anything man has put forth, through religion or any theism. Especially the Abrahamic idea of God... That, is an obvious creation of man.
Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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May 17, 2011 - 08:42pm PT
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Wishful thinking.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 17, 2011 - 09:28pm PT
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I think the argument that we don't know everything isn't relevant in this case.
Belief in heaven is just that, a belief. Beliefs need no objective support.
Hawking's opinion that there is no heaven (assuming that is what he said) is just that, an opinion. Because Hawking is a brilliant physicist who has thought a lot about the universe one might presume his authority goes beyond what he has written on in physics... but actually his is just an opinion too, no way is it a science issue.
I happen to share his belief, and I probably share some of the same reasons for that belief, but it is ultimately my opinion.
But I have to say that if you are waiting for some breakthrough in science that will lend scientific credibility to heaven you will never see it, there is no heaven there... no matter how little you think we know, we know enough to say that what ever heaven is, it is not within the domain of science to prove or disprove its existence, it's properties, as described by most people, make that clear.
It is a matter of belief.
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WBraun
climber
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May 17, 2011 - 09:56pm PT
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Modern science already proved that the upper planetary systems in the universe exist.
These upper planetary systems are the heavenly planets.
At the same time the modern scientist says something he's already proven to exist starts denying it even though everyone can see it.
How weird is that .....
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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May 17, 2011 - 09:56pm PT
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There would be essentially no suicide bombers if you take away the belief in heaven (the kind with virgins)from them. It's been a great concept for authoritarian rulers. In my opinion, it seems like a pretty infantile concept for educated people in the 21st century.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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May 17, 2011 - 10:05pm PT
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Why worry for a moment about the afterlife when we know we can't know it? I'ts beyond our realm of investigation, so worry about learning what we can!
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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May 17, 2011 - 10:26pm PT
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I think the real question is whether or not there is an "afterlife", and whether any part of your "self" persists.
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