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AndyG
climber
San Diego, CA
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Chaz opines, "29 tadpoles, three years, two short lived frogs."
Yeah, that's how it works with frogs. The big ones eat the little ones. No matter how many tadpoles you start with, you'll end up with only two frogs, the two who are too big to be eaten by each other.
I know that - from experience - and I don't have a biology degree.
I could have saved them some trouble - and a hell of a lot of money - if they had just asked around on here.
Yeah, I'm sure they just sat around and said, 'f**k these tadpoles are all just eating each other! Now what do we do?'
I am certainly not on the side of the FS here but they do have people that know just a bit more about raising amphibians than you do.
But hell, next time something's not working right in my research I'll just ask here on supertopo for a solution. I don't know why I didn't think of that sooner!
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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"I am certainly not on the side of the FS here but they do have people that know just a bit more about raising amphibians than you do."
Apparently not. They would have ended up with more than two frogs, if that were true.
The frogs I raise aren't *short lived*, either.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Remember how well the Park Service did protecting the Death Valley Pup Fish?
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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i think it would be good to report what i know about the golf course put into tujunga wash a few years ago. there were 3-4 endangered or endemic species involved there, and the "approval process" (notice, not "disapproval process") took at least a couple of years, but the jack nicklaus-designed golf course, pushed by powerful developers over the objections of the local sierra club (but not the arizona-based national endangered species think tank which is giving the forest service nightmares about williamson), was approved in spite of concerns identical to those at williamson. a pupfish and a spineflower were involved. who cares about poopy pupfishes and spineflowers which look like weeds?
a golf course takes land permanently out of the natural environment and replaces it with suburban-type land use which can be expected to pollute itself and the surrounding ecosystem with pesticides, herbicides and artificial fertilizers and to spray an extraordinary amount of water to keep grass green through the hot, dry summer.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2011 - 11:35am PT
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Recently, I was organizing another meeting on the second anniversary of the first in 2009.
As was the first, it was to be held at the Santa Clarita offices of Congressman Buck McKeon.
The Congressman's staff has been very helpful and are interested in why this issue has taken so long to even find a path towards resolve.
Officials from the USFWS, USFS, Center For Biological Diversity and Representives of our local climbing community (myself included) had confirmed they would attend.
The Congressman's office sent a request for information from the USFS regarding this issue. Thier response was the brief that I posted at the beginning of this thread.
It is the first time I have seen an actual time frame when a 'decision' will be made in regard to access of the Williamson Rock area since the original closure took place in january 2005.
Because of this developement, the Congressman's staff and I agree that the meeting should be postponed for the time being. If the Supervisor of the Angeles National Forest finds that the area can be re-opened to the public while still protecting the MYLF, there would be no reason to meet.
If however, the decision is made to continue the closure, the Congressman's office is open to this meeting and it will be coordinated and carried out.
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Sagebrush Sally
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Ca
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Hi all,
I know I'm going to catch hell for sounding like I'm on the side of the government, but I'm going to throw my 2 cents in anyway. I've been working on mountain yellow legged frog research in the northern Sierra for the University of Califonia, the Forest Service, and the NPS for 6 years and I see some deep misunderstandings being discussed here.
The southern MYLF pop. has been listed as an endangered distinct population segment (DPS). That means that there are significant enough genetic differences between populations (from both of the northern populations (Rana Sierrae and Rana Muscosa, whose dividing line is King's Canyon)and the southern MYLF to consider them functionally different and require separate management. This means that the Forest Service is legally required to treat them as a separate unit under the Endangere Species Act. Additionally, there is no way that there is any population mixing between the Sierran frogs and the Williamson frogs rendering them genetically isolated. Isolated populations have a hard time. A single event, like the fires that winked out the other southern populations, can do them in.
Here are some thoughts about the difference between endemic and endangered and what that means in the context of the Endangered Species Act. Not all endemics are listed under the ESA, but many of them deserve to be. MYLFs are not endangered because they are endemic, but it contributes to the small, isolated populations that are often quite vulnerable. The main factors that have resulted in MYLF decline are fish stocking in historically fishless areas combined with the virulent chytrid fungus that has been absolutely ravaging high elevation frogs around the world. These frogs were certainly more abundant historically and a warming drying climate over the last 10,000 years has resulted in small isolated populations in the mountains. Should we say that they were going extinct anyway and doom them because they are inconvenient?
Mountain yellow legged frogs do not eat each other. This is fiction. Tadpoles eat algae, adults eat bugs.
should climbing be shut down here because of what the government itself did stocking those lakes, thoughtlessly, for the fishing crowd? just how much can climbing be reasonably expected to stress the frog population? a hell of a lot less than fishing.
I recognize that no one likes having their favorite recreation area shut down by some annoying frog. It is a hot issue and people get really pissed off about it. I've been yelled at by fishermen plenty over fish removal in 3 lakes while there are 10,000 other stocked lakes to fish in in the Sierra. It's a me first mentality. I find it interesting when user groups who are ordinarily very conservation minded are violently opposed to conservation that interferes with their recreation. I've dealt with that a lot with the rafting community who love fish and rivers, but would prefer that the water only be turned on when they are ready to raft, which really does not work well for fish and rivers.
i understand that the government itself took 25 frogs out of the ecosystem and attempted, unsuccessfully, to breed them. am i right about this, pud? just a rumor at this point. i heard that all 25 died. there are 9 frogs--yes, an average population of 9 frogs--in upper little rock creek, which is the area adjacent to williamson gorge. 9 frogs. you can kill 25 frogs trying to "save" them. 9 frogs, i'll bet, will continue frogging along just fine with climbing going on 200 yards away. just a hunch. but this is the issue.
There have been some successful captive breeding programs, but there is a lot that can go wrong in the lab. Most likely the population was infected with chytrid which generally does not affect tadpoles until they metamorphose into adults at which point there are high mortality rates. Chytrid attacks keratinized skin. In tadpoles, only the mouth parts are keratinized, in adults the entire skin is keratinized. Chytrid prevents osmoregulation meaning that the frogs essentially die of dehydration underwater. It's awful to watch.
There are probably ways that the climbing community could prevent impacts to the small remaining population at Williamson, but I'm not sure they would cooperate. Will everyone agree to stay out of the water? Keep your dogs out of the water? Will the riparian area be off limits? Will sediment from trails be kept out? Will human waste be handled properly? These are the sorts of things that managers have to assess and who knows if the community will cooperate.
I have never been to Williamson before, so I can't say either way whether it is feasible to protect the aquatic habitat. I would like to think there is a solution. The fact that the Forest Service lost all their records in the fire is a major setback. The NEPA process is huge and takes a long time.
This is not a government anti-climber conspiracy. I assure you the people who work for the Forest Service have far too much work to do to bother with that; there are simply not enough resources to address everyone's pet issue and a whole hell of a lot of work to do. It would be nice to get some resolution to this issue, but based on what Pud posted and my understanding of how these things work, I'm going to say that it's going to take some time. Be patient, be realistic. If you've got other endangered species issues (plants and peregrines), it's going to be difficult.
sabra
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Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
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I've never been down to Williamson, but I have been to buckhorn and cooper canyon falls. Which is right next to Williamson. So how come access to there isn't threatened at all? People and dogs are allowed to go into those streams no problem, but just down stream where climbers go its a hazard to the frogs?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
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Sabra,
It is refreshing to see someone committed to true conservation. Not another 'enviromentalist' with short-sighted band-aid solutions.
My experience with the local climbing community in regard to this particular issue has been a positive one.
I recognize that no one likes having their favorite recreation area shut down by some annoying frog. It is a hot issue and people get really pissed off about it. I've been yelled at by fishermen plenty over fish removal in 3 lakes while there are 10,000 other stocked lakes to fish in in the Sierra. It's a me first mentality. I find it interesting when user groups who are ordinarily very conservation minded are violently opposed to conservation that interferes with their recreation. I've dealt with that a lot with the rafting community who love fish and rivers, but would prefer that the water only be turned on when they are ready to raft, which really does not work well for fish and rivers.
I don't think the local climbing community views the MYLF as annoying. What does annoy them is the way this issue has been mis-handled by the agencies involved.
I also think the parrallels you draw with rafters and fishermen short-change the local climbing community.
Of the 500+ emails I received in '09 prior to the first meeting, many folks offered their time, talents and money in some cases, to help construct a working program that would allow climber access while maintaining a viable habitat for the MYLF @ Williamson. Many were willing to volunteer thier time to see that it was maintained long term.
Did you ever get this type of response from the sportsmen you refer to?
This is not a government anti-climber conspiracy. I assure you the people who work for the Forest Service have far too much work to do to bother with that; there are simply not enough resources to address everyone's pet issue and a whole hell of a lot of work to do. It would be nice to get some resolution to this issue, but based on what Pud posted and my understanding of how these things work, I'm going to say that it's going to take some time. Be patient, be realistic. If you've got other endangered species issues (plants and peregrines), it's going to be difficult.
Agreed, the Angeles National Forest Service is not anti-climber.
As a matter of fact, the newly appointed ANF Supervisor Tom Contreras is a rock climber. He is the line officer designated to make the upcoming decision.
I believe that the local climbing community has been patient.
The average timeline for an environmental assessment is generally six to nine months, and for an environmental impact statement around 18-24 months.
We are in our 6th year of closure.
We (the climbing community) are all on the same path with the same goals. We want access to a publc land and we want to help preserve that enviroment and all of the plants and animals that inhabit it.
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Sagebrush Sally
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Ca
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Pud,
Thanks for the reply. I recognize that I have not been involved in this issue and don't know all that has happened. This seems like an unfortunately long process. I'm sure things will improve with the upcoming govt. shutdown. Hopefully the issue can get some resolution soon. I know 6 years is really long. I'll help in any way I can.
Sabra
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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did that frog turn into seth?
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i think it's worthwhile to discuss the particulars of the williamson situation, since we've all been getting different stories from different people in the government.
williamson gorge is snowed in the winter. the creek runs in the spring, into june, july, maybe as late as early august on a wet year, then dry as a bone, running underground to considerably below the climbing area.
prime frog habitat, as i understand, is upstream from the climbing area around that old mine shack where the spring for little rock creek originates. it'll be wetter there, with pools, into late summer.
i think the climbing area represents a significant physical barrier to general frog traffic even when it has water. steep sides, a 10-foot waterfall, boulders, cold water falling steeply through a lot of nonprime frog habitat. even when water gets through the rocks and waterfall, it runs through a gravelly bed for considerable distance past london wall and stream wall--has anyone ever seen a frog there?
i'll bet the gorge is a significant barrier--even though i was told otherwise by a forest service biologist--and that the frogs above the gorge sit tight in their little paradise, breed, get eaten by the raccoons and have maintained a stable, endemic population of nine (9) since halfway back to the last ice age.
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Thank you for your post sabra. It's the first time I've heard a coherent discussion of the subject.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Tony,
Never seen a frog at the London Wall but have seen a number of rattlesnakes or maybe it's just one snake who lives near the London Wall. I have seen frogs further downstream from the LW area, about 200 yards downstream is a year round pool that would be perfect habitat for frogs. As you mentioned the other area is near the mill site upstream but I have even seen that pool dry up in dry years. The prime area seems like it would be way downstream near Buckhorn where there is a year round stream.
I would think that a dedicated trail to the rock and closure of the London Wall would go a long way toward protecting this frog if there are any near the climbing area. I have been playing in that stream for 34 years and have never seen one near the London Wall but who knows?
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 7, 2011 - 07:27pm PT
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Sabra,
Thanks for the offer. I might take you up on it.
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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the FS biologist--i think her name was theresa, out of the valencia office--told me that the frogs travel through the gorge. i still doubt that. i haven't talked to a climber who has ever seen a frog in the gorge.
so that mine/mill site, 200 yards upstream, and the pool batrock mentions, 200 yards downstream, gotta be well past the climbing, even that 10b crag at the south end of things. downstream there are other issues, namely that of stocked trout and a dam, and the condition of the dam, which can be a barrier to trout traffic, good for the frog, bad for trout lovers. (sabra, have you ever kissed a trout?)
anyway, pud was talking at one point about volunteering for whatever needs to be done about that dam, for whatever sides we take with nature here--so's we can get back to climbing again. a lot of people have talked about "compromise"--maybe staying away from stream and london. let's please try to base this on as much science and fact as possible. if the froggies aren't truckin' through the gorge, there's no reason we ought not be able to climb there anywhere.
and i don't mind inserting another species into this, that of the peregrine falcon. everyone who climbed at williamson in the 3-4 years before its closure remembers the beautiful pair of nesting peregrines which took up residence on eagle's roost buttress--should be renamed falcon's roost. they stood their ground and tooled any climbers who dared venture near when it was inappropriate. i'm not a falcon expert, but i think it's a great example of how climbing does not affect wildlife.
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otis
Trad climber
Lake Arrowhead, Ca
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It's time we make our decisions based on common sense. I don't like being told I can't use our public lands, but if it's for a good reason I'll abide. This sounds like a clusterfuk. I wouldn't hesitate to go climbing at Williamson
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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I wish I had taken more pictures while climbing up there, I have a few from 1983 climbing on the main wall near the top with a few high school friends that I dragged up, I'll try and dig them up and scan them.
We should start a Williamson Rock photo thread to spread the love. Williamson was a great spot to go if you didn't want to or didn't have time to travel to JT or further destinations.
Post up your pics.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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"Let my people climb!"
It appears that climbers huffing weed ain't why the froggies are disappearing.
Sounds like it has been the 'scientists' huffing the ganja.
Killer fungus linked to vanishing amphibians
Studying decades-old museum samples of frogs, toads and salamanders, biologist trace the path of a deadly skin disease across Mexico and Central America.
By Amina Khan, Los Angeles Times
May 7, 2011
Around the world, frogs, salamanders and other amphibians are disappearing and much about their demise has been a mystery. Now, in an episode of amphibian CSI, biologists have used decades-old museum samples of frogs, toads and salamanders to track the relentless path of a killer fungus across Mexico and Central America over the last 40 years.
The findings, published online Monday in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, strongly link the amphibians' disappearance to the fungus and suggest that the disease was an alien invader rather than a native disease let loose by climate change.
By some estimates, about 40% of amphibian species are in decline. The main suspect is a skin fungus, Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis, known as Bd. The disease causes salamanders to lose their tails and frogs to lose weight, killing the animals within about three weeks.
Though scientists have known for decades that amphibians were mysteriously dying, by the time the they realized the scope of the problem in the 1990s, it was too late for many species. Costa Rica's golden toad, for example, went extinct within three years in the late 1980s.
The fungus, discovered a decade later, was eventually identified as a suspect. However, researchers needed more information from the past.
"It would be great if we could go to these areas and study this disease," said lead author Tina Cheng, a graduate student at San Francisco State University. Confirming the fungus' relationship to the creatures' deaths, and understanding how it traveled, could help researchers learn how to contain it. "But," Cheng added, "the sad fact of the matter is that most of the animals are not there for us to study anymore."
The extensive collection of amphibians at UC Berkeley's Museum of Vertebrate Zoology provided a solution: It contained a trove of frogs, salamanders and other amphibians collected from sites around the world. The researchers could look for evidence of the fungus on the skin of creatures that were jarred and pickled decades ago, at times when the fungus was just emerging and later on, when it had spread to epidemic status.
Using traditional methods cutting up pieces of skin and looking for the fungus through a microscope would have been too difficult and would have destroyed the specimens, Cheng said. Genetic analysis also seemed problematic because the formalin preservative chemically chops up DNA into little pieces. Nonetheless, Cheng realized that DNA analysis could work because the fragments of fungal DNA they were looking for were so small that the DNA dicing couldn't harm them.
Analysis of swabs from the bodies of frogs and toads from Costa Rica and salamanders from Mexico and Guatemala revealed some striking patterns: The fungus emerged in southern Mexico in the early 1970s and spread to western Guatemala over the next two decades, then reached Monteverde, Costa Rica, by 1987. The fungus' path matched the drops in population of a variety of amphibian species in those regions.
"The minute it shows up, things go bad pretty quick," said Karen Lips, an ecologist at the University of Maryland who was not involved in the study.
The fungus appeared to have been be completely absent in the years before scientists first detected the disease outbreaks making it unlikely that it was there all along and began to run amok because of some environmental change, such as altered climate patterns.
One theory, Cheng said, is that it was introduced by the African claw-toed frog, a carrier of the disease that was once imported from Africa for use in pregnancy tests.
Cheng said the next step would be to use the same type of DNA analysis to search for the fungus on museum specimens in other parts of the world to see whether Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis was wreaking havoc there too.
"There's going to be a lot of people going to museums and following up on things because there's a lot of unexplained [amphibian] disappearances around the world," Lips said.
amina.khan@latimes.com
Copyright © 2011, Los Angeles Times
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 23, 2011 - 12:57am PT
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bump for Willy!
Sitting at Stoney in 90 degree temps, knowing it's a balmy 70 degrees at Williamson, motivates me to never surrender!
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rurprider
Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
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Jun 23, 2011 - 07:22am PT
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1946 - Rock climbing introduced to Williamson Rock, Angeles National Forest, by the RCS (Sierra Club Rock Climbing Section). 1987 - Williamson Rock "rediscovered" by Troy Mayr, and friends. 2011 - ????
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guyman
Trad climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Jun 23, 2011 - 09:54am PT
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Its time to go climbing.
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