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Ouch!
climber
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"When people are shot in the back of the head with high power rifles, it is common knowledge that the head swings back conserving the angular momentum of the bullet and the ethalpy of the brain."
BUUULLLL SH#T!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2006 - 11:11am PT
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Interesting post LoveGas
It's true that there are plenty of real conspiracies in other countries that the people bought all the way or at least superficially. The cultural revolution in China saw kids killing and beating their parents and teachers as alledged counter-revolutionaries.
The problem and strength of America is that we think we're so much better and different that every other sucker country where power was usurped by some dictator. We think we're so morally superior and smart that what happened in Germany, Japan, Russia, China, and Italy couldn't happen here.
We're not worried that the President has the Patriot Act passed by Congress without Congressmen even reading it, and then doesn't even feel compelled to follow the new laxer laws. That law was written so fast after 9-11 it had to be sitting on the shelf waiting for the right opportunity. He claims being Commander in Cheif allows him to act in any illegal way in defense of National Security no matter what the constitution says.
Torture, lack of judicial review and due process, holding people with no access to lawyers or informing their families. None of it seems to concern us because they have us quivering in our yellow boots that a few hundred Islamic nutcases are marching on our freedom with boxcutters.
Bullshit! The danger to our freedom is ourselves and our leaders. If we let 9-11 negate the freedoms and rights in our country (no matter what the real truth of it is) we've lost. Only the US can defeat the US.
Peace
karl
On another note, both the government stories, and the conspiracy theory stories regarding the Pentagon, are full of disinformation and shaky stuff. I don't know what to believe.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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When I was in Jtree last month, the guy in the campsite next door brought up the subject of terror, and made some comments about how easy it would be, were there really an army of militant fundamentalists looking to bring down the U.S and "kill the infidels."
He went and listed several very easy to employ ideas that even I could probably pull off if I were a mentally ill psychopath bent on offing people. With a little imagination and some of the info we've been fed about "how these evil-doers operate," I think that most of us could, in theory, come up with plans to off a lot of people, if we were so inclined. Luckily, most people aren't!
So....why is it that none of these have been able to slip through our systems and cause more damage? It's pretty obvious, from the responses to catastrophes since 9/11, and from news stories of people who bring all sorts of contraban onto airplanes, that the heightened security is not the force stopping these would-be criminals.
Where are they? Are they so egotistical that, now that the twin towers have been blown up, only a bigger and better blast would be worthy of undertaking?
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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All right, Mr. Referee.... back to the topic.
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WBraun
climber
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Ok, ok we'll all quit what we are doing and now embark on our new lifes quest of figuring this sh#t out? Who here has a few million bucks to throw into the kitty to start this thing up?
Debating whether there is or not here is really stupid. Cold hard facts that the world can grasp with their ("bare hands") will only work, even if you know who did it.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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How is it someone can mail WEAPONS GRADE ANTHRAX and get away with it. That Anthrax was so deadly, if properly deployed could have killed tens of thousands.
I still think that Plane Crash in New Jersey was a missile, like the 747 off Long Island.
Juanito
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WBraun
climber
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American Free Press asked Loizeaux about the report of molten steel on the site. "Yes," he said, "hot spots of molten steel in the basements." These incredibly hot areas were found "at the bottoms of the elevator shafts of the main towers, down seven [basement] levels," Loizeaux said. The molten steel was found "three, four, and five weeks later, when the rubble was being removed," Loizeaux said. He said molten steel was also found at 7 WTC, which collapsed mysteriously in the late afternoon.
What could have caused those box columns of 4-inch thick steel to melt like this?
Construction steel has an extremely high melting point of about 2,800° Fahrenheit (1535° Celsius). Kerosene-based jet fuel, paper, or the other combustibles normally found in the towers, cannot generate this much heat, especially in an oxygen-poor environment like a deep basement.
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Werner it was not Steel but probably Aluminum.
So you think the towers were not brought down by the Aircraft?
The twin towers were very weak to begin with.
Juanito
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WBraun
climber
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"probably" means speculation, ..... worthless.
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Ouch!
climber
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"Werner it was not Steel but probably Aluminum."
I've heard that when you melt aluminum, it turns ino steel.
Jeez! That's about as dumb a troll as I've seen lately.
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happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
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None of us is going to be able to "prove" one way or another the questions asked in this thread, unless that person is a spectacular research journalist, a person in the governement in a position to know, and who is willing to risk assasination or to go down in history as a traitor for revealing sensitive information, should the answer be that there was conspiracy to create the event.
It really, then, comes down to a matter of world view. One takes the information they're presented with, as I said in the one of my "deleted for off-topicness" posts, and makes their decisions. And they behave accordingly, going forward.
To be honest, I am aware that I am a paranoid person. But even so, I don't like what I am seeing, when I add up all the informaton I am getting. Do I "need" to know if the U.S. government "did it?" No, not really. It's too big.
So, in the end, what can I, any of us, do? For me, I try to be nice, on a very small and personal level. By holding the door for the person behind me. By smiling at the baby in the stroller and then their parents, and seeing that look of love in their eyes, and sharing in that moment. In the end, it's all about love, isn't it? Really and truly, that seems to be the case. When I die, if there is some sort of consciousness where I am suddenly aware of what really and truly is/was real, it's going to be that I smiled at the middle eastern-looking guy sitting across me on the subway, and didn't avert my eyes in a fearful gut reaction that he was strapped with explosives. That in that moment, instead of giving out fear, distrust or even hatred, I gave out, on some level, love.
When the 9/11 event occurred, a lot of people made little artistic statements, and I was one of them. My effort consisted of an 8 1/2 x 11 piece of paper, with the following text(similar, I don't have the exact thing anymore) written on it:
This is only a test.
You have just witnessed a life-altering event. The manner in which you respond will alter the trajectory of the world as we know it.
You have the following responses available:
A) Hatred
B) Fear
C) Anger
D) Love
Which do you choose?
I put it up in the Union Square park, along with all the other stuff people put up during the aftermath. And ever since, even though I find the topics like this thread to be very intriguing, and I soak up the information, from all sides,in order to test the winds, I try to remind myself to stay true to myself. That in the end, it really is how I conduct myself on a personal basis that will make the difference in my life.
If this is too off-topic for allowance in this thread, I think it will be best if I just sit and watch going forward.
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WBraun
climber
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Was it to far off topic
No happiegrrrl, it was very nice .......
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Americans are simply too chatty for a conspiracy of this size to hold any weight. Conspiracies only work when people are bought in that they will get blamed if they break the party line. In this case I think 9-11 was from massic dysfunction, ego and lack of cooperation in our government. There is no doubt we were watching some of these people in the US and others abroad and I don't think anyone really took this seriously enough. When the sh#t hit the fan everyone pulled a huge CYA and that is the only real conspiracy here. Incompetence and ignorance.
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WBraun
climber
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How exactly does an aluminum passenger plane nose cone make it thru 9 feet of steel re-enforced concrete anyway?
When the tail remains in pieces, the engines can not melt. They are made with high temperature metals to resist to the fire inside them. Engines made with steel and titanium melt (Titanium Ti 22 47.90 4.54, melting point 1668º C 3260º F ).
The nose cone of passenger aircraft are made of composite fibre. Now let's re=cap the official Pentagon story: Composite fibre crashes through 7 walls of re-inforced concrete and rests inside the AE drive.
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WBraun
climber
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"highly possible", another speculation, we need some money, (yea they spent it already on their "official report") to build a direct replica of the steel reinforced concrete walls per specs of the pentagon crash site and "you" our good friend Rajmit will fly this phucking plane into it to see the results.
By remote control of course :-)
And you go to MIT?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 2, 2006 - 04:36pm PT
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Article detaiing the connections between the Bin Laden Family and Bush Family.
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/conspiracytheories/saudi.html
Really what a coincidence that Bush's dad, the ex-president was meeting with Bin Laden's brother on 9-11. Amazing wacky world eh?
These guys don't say that the Administration orchestrated 9-11 but that they were blind to it because so much of the pre-9-11 warnings and evidence pointed to the Saudis, who nobody wanted to look at.
PEace
karl
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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"The current war in Iraq shows how the US can plan and implement deception in a highly skilled manner ... in fact, the invasion relied heavily on deception to succeed. "
Against an actual enemy. You have to sell a large number of US personnel on the idea that killing thousands of the Americans they have sowrd to protect is a good idea. Nnot a likely scenario. Conspiracies like that can only survive if they exist inside a very, very small group.
Plenty of people will happily sacrifice or screw other Americans indirectly, through economic and social depravity, but the act of directly harming them is a wholely other matter.
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WBraun
climber
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"very small group"
Yes
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SuperTopo on the Web
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Five young israeli agents were arrested on 9/11 as they wildly celebrated attacks from across the river. They were trained in electronics and explosives, had fake passports, $4700. rolled up in a sock, were suspected of trying to blow up the G.W. Bridge, and were disguised as furniture movers, a ruse that could've helped them gain access to the towers to plant explosives. Their van(s) had traces of explosives within and their Israeli boss at "moving Co." fled to Israel days later.
Let us know!