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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Dec 30, 2005 - 02:08pm PT
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Enlightened WB,
Sorry for asking questions and not taking the time to research. I am lazy. The great thing about the internet is that I can find the answer I want to hear with a very good explenation. I can also find the answer I dont want to hear with a very good explenation. The problem is taking the time to sift through all that stuff and still end up with nothing but "he said, she said". In the end you will take the bits that fit into what you belive. The whole thing is distorted even more when you throw politricks into it.
Have fun doing your research. I am heading off to the park with my kids for few hours before the rain hits.
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Hootervillian
climber
back from Lou's, wearing my Juanita's
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Dec 30, 2005 - 02:19pm PT
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what amazes me is the reaction.
when it comes to a multi-headed liberal media monster or a muslim-wide caliphate, it's a front row seat. uncovering every last detail in the slaughter of a bunch of innocent americans and it's carry on, have fun with your research.
why not profit from the political capital and worldwide support of an open and complete, multi-agency, multi-national investigation?
what an opportunity to gain worldwide trust and cooperation.
let's get full value for the sacrifice of the 343, et al.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2005 - 02:22pm PT
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WTC7 was quite unusual for having been built over/around a con ed transformer substation in the middle of it and they used transfer beams to build around it. That wasn't all that dubious, but the later addition of the larger diesel tank in combination with an already novel structural design actually goes quite some distance to explain why this building may have performed so differently than "any building before 9/11 or since". Videos showing the collapse from above actually show an asymmetric roof failure that would be fairly inconsistent with a demolition. I don't think we'll ever have a definitive answer, but the obvious novelty of both the design and later modifications do suggest they could be responsible for a novel result however unlikely...
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 30, 2005 - 02:36pm PT
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On tower #7 Videos with showing the collapse from above actually show an asymmetric roof failure
I don't see no roof failure ??????
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2005 - 02:48pm PT
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Werner, in any of the available videos you can clearly see that as the roof fails it does so asymmetrically, both in time and across the plan/footprint...
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 30, 2005 - 03:30pm PT
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On tower 7? Number seven (7)
I'm not talking about the two main towers ......the Twin Towers
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 30, 2005 - 03:30pm PT
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So at a minimum, they took a very important building and added diesel tanks to make it like a bomb waiting to go off. No Steel skycraper in history has ever failed due to fire. If this one indeed did, there would still be questions to answer.
First, it's not just any location but housed an important CIA facility.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/11/05/archive/main316911.shtml
"The agency is prohibited from conducting domestic espionage operations against Americans, but it maintains stations in a number of major United States cities, where CIA case officers try to meet and recruit students and other foreigners to return to their countries and spy for the United States.
The New York station was believed to have been the largest and most important CIA domestic station outside the Washington area. "
Others have noted that Building 7 also contained offices of the Securities and Exchange Commission including files for approximately three to four thousand cases, including one that may have demonstrated the relationship between Citigroup and the WorldCom bankruptcy.
Why did they get rid of the debris before analyzing it?
http://www.wtc7.net/steeldisposal.html
There's more and more, and we could go around and around. Maybe the truth (which I don't know) will come out in time and maybe it won't, but i just smell fish
Peace
karl
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2005 - 03:36pm PT
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Werner - on WTC 7...
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 30, 2005 - 03:37pm PT
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Yup, Lois.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Dec 30, 2005 - 03:39pm PT
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This whole thread is a perfect example of why the Opposition Party (aka Democrats) is doomed to remain the Opposition Party, if they're lucky.
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capndick4
Boulder climber
wading knee deep and going in
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Dec 30, 2005 - 03:41pm PT
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Qoute:
Just so conservatives dont take it to heart
I dont think bush did it cuz he isnt that smart
he's just a stupid puppet on a cell phone
taking orders from the same people that sabotaged senator wellstone
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Dec 30, 2005 - 03:43pm PT
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Karl,
There were lots of peculiarities relative to the occupants of the WTC7, but the tanks were added for NYC, not the feds. Again, we'll never know for sure, but there were certainly enough engineering novelties about the building to make it unlike any other "Steel skycraper in history". It was a bastard design from the beginning and then unwisely modded afterwards - and that assumes the construction of the frame and beam fireproofing were well-executed. Given these novelties and the obvious asymmetric roof collapse it would seem to me there could easily be a rational chain of events that could have caused a footprint collapse.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 30, 2005 - 03:48pm PT
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Why do you keep saying the roof collapse healyje? Where do you "see" with your eyes in that clip or any other, a roof failing on WTC 7? I'm at loss here.
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dirtbag
climber
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Dec 30, 2005 - 03:54pm PT
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Thank you Lois, but I think you're giving me far too much credit. :-) Your post was on the money, IMO. I agree that it would be THE mother of all juicy news stories if it was credible.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Dec 30, 2005 - 03:55pm PT
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Maybe so Healyje. I just don't know. My fears are based on the preponderance of unanswered questions and the way they have been avoided.
Lois, Some things are so unthinkable that we just can't go there. I'll bet you didn't know that we knew about pearl harbor in advance and that we even went out of our way to provoke it. Read "Day of Deceit" and see what you think.
http://tinyurl.com/8a278
"Historians have long debated whether President Roosevelt had advance knowledge of Japan's December 7, 1941, attack on Pearl Harbor. Using documents pried loose through the Freedom of Information Act during 17 years of research, Stinnett provides overwhelming evidence that FDR and his top advisers knew that Japanese warships were heading toward Hawaii. The heart of his argument is even more inflammatory: Stinnett argues that FDR, who desired to sway public opinion in support of U.S. entry into WWII, instigated a policy intended to provoke a Japanese attack. The plan was outlined in a U.S. Naval Intelligence secret strategy memo of October 1940; Roosevelt immediately began implementing its eight steps (which included deploying U.S. warships in Japanese territorial waters and imposing a total embargo intended to strangle Japan's economy), all of which, according to Stinnett, climaxed in the Japanese attack."
I'm not even saying they were wrong to do it, but it happened.
Not sure you read my link on Operation Northwoods. It's not long, don't miss it.
Let say that Kennedy didn't 86 the plan which was signed off on by the whole Joint Chiefs, and a round of violent terrorist attacks were pulled off by the Kennedy Government on Americans.
This very nearly happened . Ask yourself this question
"Would I have questioned the evidence that it was Kennedy and not Castro killing Americans or just assumed that such a thing was unthinkable?"
Really, try to answer that honestly to yourself
PEace
karl
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Hootervillian
climber
back from Lou's, wearing my Juanita's
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Dec 30, 2005 - 04:01pm PT
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interesting thesis lois. seems to be predicated on the obvious, and vast, left wing liberal media conspiracy theory, even i have heard of that. we can always count on you to be
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 30, 2005 - 04:32pm PT
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That video shows part of WTC 7's roof crumbling seconds before the collapse. And that is only seconds.
The claim that the collapse was the result of a fire requires the fire be equally distributed throughout the entire floor of the building, providing equal heat for an equal amount of time, so that all the load bearings members would fail at the exact same moment.
For a building to collapse into its own footprint, as WTC 7 did, ALL of the load bearing members must fail at the exact same moment.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Dec 30, 2005 - 04:33pm PT
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Interesting that a sampling of reasonably intelligent people that take great pride in their rationality and lack of need for religion can accept on blind faith fantastic stories of conspiracy that never survive the daylight.
Maybe they really do have a religion and just replace a "god" that gives meaning to their existence with some kind of just as imaginary conspiracy?
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