Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
|
|
|
Dec 20, 2010 - 08:40pm PT
|
I once flagged my ledge while I was in it. Then I wasn't in it.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Dec 20, 2010 - 10:01pm PT
|
DON'T BUY A FISH LEDGE!
It is a colossal piece of junk. My FISH ledge "only" lasted 410 nights on El Cap, before I had to get a new one from Russ, with a whole bunch of superb modifications, for a really great price.
During those 410 nights, I climbed 40 different El Cap routes, and what do El Cap routes average, 20 pitches each? I flagged virtually every one of those pitches, except maybe some of the summit pitches. So what's that - 800 or so pitches flagged? I climbed a few Grade V's as well in addition. So nearly a thousand pitches? Unfortunately this also means I had to climb nearly a thousand pitches, for climbing is a necessary encumbrance in order to reach the bitchin'est campsites.
When I go Big Wall Camping, I set up my FISH ledge at the base, flag it the entire wall, and take it down at the top. Any fool can be uncomfortable, and I only look stupid. If you know what you're doing, and it ain't hard to learn, you can have your ledge flagged in seconds, and unflagged in seconds. Especially when using the Super Duper Trick of Kate's, which she can explain to you, because it's her killer idea, and makes flagging - and setting up your campsite - a breeze.
Caveat: Be careful when clipping the ledge onto or off of the haul line in heavy winds, or you can get your chops wrecked. Ask Kate and Handsome Mike about that.
Plus I concur with every word of Kate's post above, so be sure to go back a page and read it.
So don't buy a FISH ledge, because you will never be able to get rid of the thing. It will last you pretty much forever. You can abuse it, you can tweak it under roofs, it will pop around. If a tube bends, you can stand on it [on a rock ledge] to straighten it pretty much as good as new. I did that on Timbuktu Towers to the amazement of Kate, as she describes above. Note that not flagging your ledge on really sick hauls will make tweaking your ledge less likely. But it's a FISH, so it doesn't matter.
Russ has added a couple really great features on my new ledge. The first is as Kate describes, bomber wraps around the three sides that rub and get abraded during flagging. Buy yourself a can of Plasti-Dip and reinforce these bits first. Secondly, he made a daisy along the bottom of the outside of the ledge - a brilliant idea for hanging stuff when you're camping, to supplement the other daisies on the six straps. I use my FISH double for solo bivying, and Russ left off the shark fins for me because he knows this.
Note to Russ - you really don't need the daisy on the ends of the ledge, only on the outside bit.
Now, my only complaint is that the beer cozy he made for me is a bit too large in diameter. I think what it needs to be is made to fit a regular tall beer can or regular diameter coffee cup, and that a slot needs to be cut into it to accomodate the handle of the coffee cup, depending of course on whether it is before or after Changeover Time.
Cheers and beers,
Pete
P.S. I don't understand what MTucker means above - please explain
|
|
pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
|
|
|
Dec 20, 2010 - 10:51pm PT
|
lol!
|
|
Kristoffer
climber
San Diego, California
|
|
|
Dec 21, 2010 - 12:15am PT
|
i just sleep hanging in my harness...
|
|
NeeDlzdos
Big Wall climber
|
|
|
Dec 21, 2010 - 01:18am PT
|
I'll flag everything unless it's a slab or funky haul.
|
|
Pass the Chongo, Chongo
Social climber
in cave
|
|
|
Dec 21, 2010 - 02:12am PT
|
HEY THERE SAY.... I ONLY FLAG!
XOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXOXO
choNGO!
|
|
Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
|
|
|
Dec 21, 2010 - 09:48am PT
|
Fast climbers might break their ledges down, but slow goers find the ledge to be a great belay stance. If you flag the ledge, you always have a place to stack the rope, sort gear, fall asleep at the belay . .. . .
RUSS: More than once, I've seen your double ledge, flagged, do a pretzel/tweak twist against an edge, go long tube against long tube, and then suddenly POP!, get free, and then go back to normal.
Cro-moly tubing is the way to go. Like spring steel, it is impossible to dent, damage, or defile.
I'd like to say that aluminum tubing is for fags, but that's not PC.
My ledge has carbon fiber tubes. To be as robust as a FISH double, I had to reinforce the ends of the tubes. I used epoxy and stainless steel tubing, about three inches long. I put an inside and and outside tube at each corner. My ledge has a two outside slider couplings at the mid span.
|
|
xtrmecat
Big Wall climber
Kalispell, Montanagonia
|
|
|
Dec 21, 2010 - 11:34am PT
|
I flag it when the pitches for the day allow it. Way easy, watch the wind, and soooooo comfy to stretch out at the belay. Only remeber hanging up once, waited (well needed cardio break), the wind changed and it was free once more. I do recall a small 20 minute nap when the wind died and the sun shone in May, just don't tell Oli, he was on his hardest aid lead yet. Fly that puppy like your proud to own a Fish ledge.
Discalimer, no all pitches allow it, Zion is a bit abrasive.
Burly Bob
|
|
Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
|
|
|
Feb 12, 2011 - 12:21am PT
|
|
|
hoipolloi
climber
A friends backyard with the neighbors wifi
|
|
|
Feb 12, 2011 - 01:36am PT
|
Cha!!
Flagging is SOOO yesterday. I use the most kick ass cOmfortable Parke Design Hammock ever. Don't believe me, ask Mark Hudon, he has one, it's the best ever.
|
|
mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
|
|
|
Feb 12, 2011 - 02:12am PT
|
Forrest hammocks work pretty good too.
Nothing better than a recliner at the belay.
|
|
Gabe
climber
|
|
|
Feb 12, 2011 - 02:29am PT
|
Pack it away for safe keeping! You need that gear in working condition or it's an anchor. Smiles.
|
|
namascar
Trad climber
Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
Feb 12, 2011 - 02:36am PT
|
I noticed that I loose 10 lb if I donīt flag the ledge but I mantain my weight if I flag it. I think the difference is due to the crucifixion-style effort involved while at hanging belays (belay sits just wonīt do). I am there for the fun, so I flag.
|
|
hollyclimber
Big Wall climber
Yosemite, CA
|
|
|
May 29, 2011 - 03:12pm PT
|
Hi Russ-
Saw this question on your blog today and came here to answer. I don't flag my ledge. One reason is I use a BD unfoldy ledge, and it gets really cranky when flagged. The strap configurations are really important and its a pain if they get crossed.
I wouldn't flag most likely with another ledge either. I have climbed with someone who flags their ledge. Sure its nice to sit on it when belaying. But, I bring a nice belay seat. I find that having to deal with the ledge at the belay is just one more slow down. I like to go fast. I have the anchor broken down except the one biner that is holding the bags and have myself totally ready to jug before the haul starts. I found the ledge to be annoying and in the way at these last 10 min of the pitch. Just one more thing to be attending to at the time when you have a lot to be attending to. The ledge is banging around, potentially hitting you in the head as it is resting on top of your bag and sticking up 5 feet. Maybe even it is in the way for you to get on your jugs until the haul starts. Thats a serious delay in my book. Also, that means you have less time to access the bag, since accessing the bag is not the last thing you do, but the next to last thing.
Then, I found the ledge to be in the way when the bag first comes up for the dock (like to dock my bag as high as I can for easy access) and when my partner and I were at the belay together. I don't mind at all the routine of putting away the ledge. My partner and I put away everything together before we climb so we are packed up and ready to go for the days business. Finally, I would say there is zero risk of me dropping my ledge during the day when I don't flag it. I don't need an extra chance to pitch my ledge off El Cap. Been on a climb where the ledge got pitched on Day One (not due to flagging) - pretty grim up the Trip for 3 days after that.
Maybe the ledge doesn't get "damaged" from being flagged, but I am sure that it gets stuck on some hauls and causes small hassles. Just what I don't need when I want to go fast. So, after flagging my ledge on one pitch and doing one full El Cap route with a flagged ledge, I was not convinced that it was better than my method of putting everything away. If you save 10 min a pitch by not fussing around with the ledge (which is pretty modest-bet most flaggers spend more than 10 min per pitch messing with it overall), that might be the 40 min you need to do 5 pitches today instead of 4. I would rather setup my ledge in the dark and get in the extra pitch if I want it.
Also, you specifically asked what most climbers do. Most parties on El Cap do not flag. It is pretty rare. I am confident that if we had stats they would show this to be overwhelmingly true. But, what the person who is climbing El Cap for his or her first time (which is the case for most people up there) is doing is probably not that relevant. Doesn't mean its the best choice. Better to find out what people who climb El Cap more than a couple of times do the most and that is hard to be sure on.
But if people like the features marketed for flagging, you got to go for it right?!! To me a flagged ledge is part of a junk show, and I try to run a very small tidy show if possible.
HB
|
|
mctwisted
Social climber
superslacker city
|
|
|
May 29, 2011 - 06:53pm PT
|
|
|
Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
|
|
|
May 29, 2011 - 09:20pm PT
|
If both climbers have ledges, do you still just flag one?
Anyone ever flagged 2?
Yes.
If you have two pigs, you flag both ledges.
The second ledge becomes a - wait for it - SUN SHADE.
The only time I didn't flag my ledge was when I was *reviewing* a Metolious with aluminum tubes. That sort of cubicle-designed product belongs in the storage bag, in the garage, at all times. And not on a Big Wall.
Flag the FISH.
Offload the rest on eBay to n00bs.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!