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Big Piton
Trad climber
Ventura
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this question is so stupid. Please wear a sticker on your forehead.
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Acer
Big Wall climber
AZ
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cragnshag, I bet that that harness there meets criteria to be replaced. The wear bars are showing.
There was plenty of harness write ups in the mags after Todd S accident. When the harness is older/wearing, time to get a new one. The extra nylon around the tie in point because of the extra abrasion (rope on harness = nylon on nylon).
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
SoCal
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I don't like belay loops. I cut them off.
I have a strict policy of NO metal on metal and NO cloth on cloth.
Cloth on metal only.
('cept wire slung stoppers)
Oh yeah, and tiein' in.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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One of the first things I was taught about Yosemite climbing and never forgot, from Joe Fitschen in the Tetons in 1960 or 61: "Eliminate unnecessary links."
And my own policy: establish backups on backups on backups...
And from Walt Shipley during an encounter below Camp 6 on the Nose in 1985; where I thought safe enough, and he didn't agree: ...never assume it is safe enough...clip strong points and keep checking...
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Spider,
no metal on metal, (biner on bolt hanger, biner on piton)?
cloth on cloth (rope on harness tie-in, rope on sling to rappel)?
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
wussing off the topout on Roadside Attraction
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Always eschew absolute statements!
This is so rc.nOOb...
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rich sims
Trad climber
co
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HA Ha Marty I too am guilty of belaying you with a backed up loop. Probably a carry over from the Willans harness?
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tomtom
Social climber
Seattle, Wa
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It's stupid to risk your life on a single piece of nylon.
Honor Todd Skinner.
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MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
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Today's harnesses are made to have the BELAY LOOP in use.
Can't use a Gri Gri or Cinch without a belay loop.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Are you sure? I've never used a Cinch or a GriGri, but I'll bet I could find a way to use it on something like an Alpine Bod Harness, which doesn't have a belay loop.
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aguacaliente
climber
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I look at that pair o' Palins picture and see two locking biners placed where the locking collars could rub on each other, which worries me.
Probably the chances that would ever lead to opening/failure of both lockers are minuscule. But it goes along with something else I think, which is that just adding stuff that we think of as backups to a system doesn't necessarily make it safer. Sometimes it makes it more complicated and that can make it not safer.
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The Wedge
Boulder climber
Santa Rosa & Bishop, CA
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I use the belay and repel loop to belay and repel. On occasion I will use use the loop made by my figure eight knot that I use to tie in.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Do you back up your rope?
You might, if it's an 8.1mm and there is danger of it getting cut.
Or if has a big core shot, and you just need to lead one more short pitch to top out.
Usually you won't back up your rope, because you feel it is strong/reliable enough that the risk of it failing are small enough to treat as zero.
Similarly, most people these days are fine with leading on a 10.5mm (or usually lower, like 9.x) even though the risk of an 11mm breaking is probably lower than the 10.5mm. The risk of the 10.5 or 9.x failing is already small enough to not spend any more weight to reduce further.
Same with the belay loop - it is ridiculously strong unless a lot of its fibers are compromised (like Todd's was). You could double it.
But you could also triple or quadruple it. Each added loop would reduce the risk further. But most people stop somewhere at what they feel is an acceptable level of risk.
The single belay loop reduces other risks, like the risk of cross loading the belay biner. And it prevents a hot biner from melting the loops on your harness where you thread your tie-in knot. (This doesn't mean cutting off/not using the belay loop is invalid, it just has both advantages and disadvantages).
One of the fun/interesting things about climbing is making some attempt at risk calculations and tradeoffs with weight, time, cost and complexity.
So I'd say keep thinking about risks and stay aware. But people may value things differently.
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bookworm
Social climber
Falls Church, VA
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i girth-hitch a 6-inch sewn runner through my waist belt and leg loop and clip it and the belay loop when i rap...can't hurt
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DreamingGnar
Trad climber
Houston, TX
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The belay loop is rarely ever subjected to huge loads. The only time there's really a heavy impact is if the leader falls straight off the belay. In every other instance there's always other links in the system to absorb impact force.
So I assume my leader is intent on taking a Factor 2 whenever possible and inspect the loop accordingly. There's no way I'm backing it up for two reasons. 1) That tiny piece of webbing/cord is damn sure going to wear out faster than my belay loop. it's so tiny as to be laughable. If my harness is so worn that the belay loop is ready for failure and I haven't noticed it, then I've got bigger problems to worry about. My imminent mortality for instance. If I lack the intelligence to inspect my belay loop, I doubt I'll be able to inspect it's backup. 2) That extra piece of shoe string will do little more than impart a false sense of confidence in my gear, and that's something I don't need at all.
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Decko
Trad climber
Colorado
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The Belay loop is the strongest most mis-understood part of a harness.
It seems most people who don't understand it, back it up.
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Disaster Master
Social climber
Born in So-Cal, left my soul in far Nor-Cal.
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It seems most people who don't understand it, back it up.
Oh, I understand it. But I am still paranoid enough, seen wierd things happen with gear, that I sometimes still back it up.
Can't use a Gri Gri or Cinch without a belay loop.
Sure ya can. Why not? Because of the orientation? Not THAT big a deal, dude.
Todd Skinner died when his belay loop failed. Sure, he may have been the first one. But I don't want to be the second.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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The Metolius Wall harness has TWO belay loops, so if you are paranoid, that is the harness for ya.
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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My Mother still warns me to be safe when I tell her that I'm going climbing (I just turned 55). I tell her, "Ma, I have to drive 800 miles to get to Yosemite, after all the car problems that could kill me and after all the whacked out drivers coming at me in the other lane, when I finally get on the climb it'll be the safest part of the trip"!
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