Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2010 - 12:29pm PT
|
My observation with Chouinard catalogs shows that Chouinard had Spring and Winter newsletters. The famous 1972 catalog was used for three years where the pages stayed the same but the price list in the back changed. Actually for sure there are 6 different versions of the 1972(73, 74) catalog the original having the back price list all in one single column. In most of the price lists it states if it is a 1973 fall version etc. I have a strange feeling that Chouinard put out a new price list every quarter over twice a year but I am still trying to prove it.
The only way to find the changes in the 1975/76 catalogs is going through the pages. On some of the pages the photos are changed and on others new products are listed. This 1975/76 mystery will take some time to figure out. Stephanes 1977 Chouinard catalog (which is the same cover as the 75, 76), lists the 1976, 1977 products including the new featherlight carabiner.
I too do not have the 77 Chouinard catalog.
BRIAN....That's the hammer Im talkin about! I will check with Stephane to see if his 77 catalog shows a different photo of the Northwall hammer. The seller said that he purchased both of these pieces from ebay years ago. The Climbaxe has the newer (mountain outline) Camp symbol on it instead of the diamond Camp symbol, so I place the pieces around year 1976, but I can't seem to find any documentation of its existence. The search continues.........
Now back to carabiners!
Rock on! Marty
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2010 - 01:49pm PT
|
Got a couple that don't appear in the photo's above (but, might be):
All different size "2300 kg". One small "2300 kg" the others larger (and larger yet) "2300 kg - U.S.A."
Other side of the same biners:
Smallest size logo has "Chouinard U.S.A." The other two, slightly larger, just say "Chouinard".
Here's a variation of the 2000kg oval:
Markings on the gate.
Great thread!
-Brian in SLC
|
|
Dick Erb
climber
June Lake, CA
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2010 - 02:14pm PT
|
Here are a couple of biners I've had for over 50 years. I think they are the first ones that Yvon designed and had manufactured. On one side is stamped 820 ALCOA 7075. 7075 is the alloy used. I don't know what the 820 signifies.
Chouinard is stamped on the other side. It is almost worn off of this one.
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2010 - 02:30pm PT
|
My bet is that "820" is either a rod stock size, weight, or, some type of customer product number.
Seems to be commonly on the Alcoa marked carabiners.
Anyone know?
|
|
groundup
Trad climber
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2010 - 03:50pm PT
|
Seeing as how the "7075" probably refers to the aluminum hardness (layman’s understanding here, sorry) the Brian’s guess on the "820" might be right. I have a buddy who is a retired engineer from an ALCOA plant here in West Virginia...I'll ask if he has ever seen anything like that on other products
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2010 - 04:25pm PT
|
Dick: Thanks for posting up the great photos of the 1957-67 Chouinard-Alcoa biners.
Groundup: I just did some searching for what 820 means, in an aluminum rod and found no answers. Maybe your engineer friend has that answer. Thanks for posting here.
Brian: Back to the Chouinard catalogs for me, after your photos.
With some more research, what I find is confusion!
The Oval is introduced in my 1978 catalog with the information on the carabiner body and in all my catalogs: it stays that way to the end. Your Oval with information on the gate, may well be a slightly earlier model.
There is a change in how the information was put on the Oval Carabiner in the 1988-89 catalog. It was in a more flattened area per below photo.
It is an easier timeline on two of 2300KG carabiner you show. The only 2300KG carabiner that shows up in the Chouinard catalogs is the Light D.
The one I show in my time-line guide is also shown in my 1981 catalog. It has the information on the gate.
By the 1984 catalog the information on the Light D is on the body, like on the three you picture, and it stays there through 1989.
However the one with smaller embossing and USA after Chouinard does not show up in any of catalogs.
Stumped again, and it isn't "cocktail hour" yet.
Great! Let's see some more carabiner variations!
Brian: May I enter your photos in my timeline?
|
|
Thorgon
Big Wall climber
Sedro Woolley, WA
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2010 - 04:52pm PT
|
Fritz,
Excellent Part 2 and you are probably right about the rope bag. I bought it around the time I graduated high school and took a year off to climb rocks! I wasn't aware of a second "improved Featherweight" and I wonder if I own some? Extremely likely because in the early years all my carabiners were Chouinard! Now except for a coulpe dozen Duvals all are Black Diamond, especially about a boat load of Neutrinos, but that is way down the time line! I actually prefer the notchless carabiner, but they are usually more spendy. Now if BD made a notchless Neutrino, that would be an excellent carabiner!!!
Keep up the good work,
Thor
Brian: awesome Climbaxe, Northwall hammers! Talk about collectors items, that is the King of Collectables!
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2010 - 05:07pm PT
|
Absolutely, if you can figure out where they go (I have no clue!).
Marty, we need a biner chart! Ha ha.
|
|
Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2010 - 06:49pm PT
|
Brian: awesome Climbaxe, Northwall hammers! Talk about collectors items, that is the King of Collectables!
Yeah, I just scarfed the photo of them from the auction. Didn't even come close to gettin' them.
Fess up, Marty. Ha ha.
I'm kinda wondering if the short handled northwall isn't marked as a C-F. The seller claimed it was, though. Maybe a proto only available in Europe from CAMP?
|
|
karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2010 - 07:52pm PT
|
Brian....Chouinard Carabiner chart? But Fritz is doing a great job!
I tried scamming that hammer photo but couldn't get it. I still got it through the printing route. The seller claims the hammer is a Chouinard but I agree it probably is a Chouinard/Camp prototype. Still a fantastic piece to surface! I am curious what is stamped on the other side. My guess is it was made in 1975 which lead to the 1976 ice axe handle version.
I went back and looked at my catalogs and found that we have been Chouinarded again! I guess this proves that ice axes went to fiberglass in 1978. Both 1978 catalogs are totally the same except for the wood handle catalog says "one dollar" on inside cover and the paper is book grade. The fiberglass handle catalog says "two dollars" on inside cover and paper is coated and the only change is page 49 and 50 showing the ice axes with fiberglass handles.
|
|
karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2010 - 07:59pm PT
|
This is a later 1980s Big-D Locking Carabiner
Fritz you can add this to your project.
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2010 - 08:45pm PT
|
Marty,Thorgon, & Brian: Thanks for keeping this thread lively!
I did add Brian's photos to the timeline. I will definately add the Marty-biner too.
I was thinking it might be fun to reduce all the information I posted into a spread sheet, that is based on breaking strength embossed on the different models of carabiners.
Of course it would have to have minimum/maximum price each model has fetched at recent auctions.
Those prices might be a downer to people that think they are sitting on a fortune in carabiners.
|
|
groundup
Trad climber
hard sayin' not knowin'
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2010 - 08:57pm PT
|
Thanks Fritz,
I've been following this thread for a while without comment and I thought it was time to say thank you for your hard work. Having this information out there is pretty damn cool. Here are some shots of another ALCOA carabiner and one of the reverse locking pearbiners.The locker has round sides so I guess it's a later model?
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2010 - 11:03pm PT
|
From Summit May 1960, this Dolt Hut ad for the "Chouinard III" alcoa biner.
The spine detail from the same ad campaign and presumably the same third run of Alcoa biners.
Please take a look at the markings on your Alcoas and see if they are in any way different than those shown above. Please post a shot in any case. It would be routine to make some alteration in the dies for bookkeeping purposes should a defect arise.
Any variation in the die details are of interest. Tom Frost mentioned that he thought that the original run of Alcoa carabiners didn't have Chouinard's name stamped anywhere on them and had a slightly more pronounced D shape than the ones shown above. Trying to avoid carabiner shifting was one of the early design goals.
|
|
karabin museum
Trad climber
phoenix, az
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2010 - 11:11pm PT
|
Maybe this will help your research.....
...from 1960 Dolt Catalog
Rock on!
Marty
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2010 - 11:24pm PT
|
Marty- Any other shots of the Alcoas prior to early 1960? A shot of the Chouinard stamp on the spine of yours would be cool.
I too would become "nicely sprung!" LOL
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 28, 2010 - 11:45pm PT
|
Groundup: Thanks for those "biner" photos. I'll work that Locker into the timeline tomorrow with credit for you.
Steve: Thank you for posting up those "pre-68" Chouinard biner images, and thanks to Marty again.
Maybe we will assemble enough "pre-68' Chouinard biner images, that the observant people among us will figure out the model changes in the production runs from 1957 to 1967????
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Nov 28, 2010 - 11:55pm PT
|
Thanks to you for thrashing with all this stuff and laying out the results so neatly.
|
|
Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
|
|
|
Nov 29, 2010 - 12:09am PT
|
After looking at all the photos of the pre-1968 Chouinard biners on this thread and the other one, I only see one style of drop forged body.
Presumably this is the drop forging die that Yvon Chouinard borrowed $825.35 from his parents to pay ALCOA in 1957.
They all have the raised lettering shown in Steve's detailed ad scan and in Dick Erb's photos.
I see differences in machining of the body at the gate hinge.
Apparently the first model was machined on the Chouinard family drill press, and later by different people. There are several small differences, such as the shape of the gate at the hinge (angled or rounded).
 The "Model III" in the Dolt Hut ad that Steve posted has the milling very tight to the gate, and the edge is perpendicular to the part of the body at the hinge.
The biners shown on the Nose 2nd ascent rack appear to be of this type.
The only current example I've seen of this on both threads is the one just posted by groundup.
The "Other Model" (I?, II?, IV?) is not milled as tightly to the gate hinge end, and edge is more perpendicular to the main axis of the biner, instead of the small part of the body near the hinge.
Most examples (such as those posted by Dick Erb) are of this type.
one of the two posted by Dick Erb above
posted by Marty Karabin above
posted by Brian in SLC in the other thread
The above are all the "ALCOA" side.
Below are the "CHOUINARD" side images. All are the "Other Model", in terms of machining at the gate hinge.
posted by Dick Erb above
Brian in SLC
Larry Hamilton
Charlie D
Scared Silly (maybe a repost)
Black Diamond website
Doug Robinson
(this last one has a different shape of the gate near the hinge - long flat taper; others above are shorter and rounded)
|
|
Fritz
Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2010 - 12:24am PT
|
Woohoo Clint!
When I posted: Maybe we will assemble enough "pre-68' Chouinard biner images, that the observant people among us will figure out the model changes in the production runs from 1957 to 1967????
I was hoping you would share your keen eyes and abundant knowledge on this difficult subject!
Much Thanks! Fritz
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!