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pc
climber
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Sep 24, 2010 - 01:27am PT
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Actually John I don't think that's true. What the President's health care plan started out as and what it ended up being watered down to, are very different things. IMO the lower rates thing was largely tied to the public option passing. It did not, because conservatives thought it was a gov't takeover of healthcare. It was not. It was simply providing a basic choice for everyone.
$.02 + my $1,500/month to cover my family,
pc
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apogee
climber
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Sep 24, 2010 - 01:36am PT
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The Dems pantywaisted their approach to HCR, and the end result was every bit as dilute as most would expect from the Dems.
On the other hand, the Reps would never have let such an issue within 10 miles of their political agendas. (Another unfounded war or tax cuts for the rich is obviously the highest priority.)
Pretty shitty choice, if you ask me- though if a bunch of money is going to be wasted, it is marginally more acceptable to me to see it done on a domestic issue that (theoretically) will benefit the masses, rather than an agenda that will result in benefit to a few megacorporations.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Sep 24, 2010 - 04:43am PT
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The Democratic kool aid obviously has some peoples panties in a bunch.
The blind faith in someone who has been making unkept promises from day one is frightening.
The fact is, NO ONE knows exactly what is in the thing.
Not one congressman read all 2000+ pages before they voted on it, if they read any of it at all.
And to think that anything the government does is going to end up saving money is ludicrous.
It will be an unsustainable money pit just like everything else the gov. does.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2010 - 09:18am PT
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Hi Shack,
I know how to read, and I have read, twice now, all 2000 pages of the bill.
When I open my mourh to talk about it, it is because I have first read it all.
I don't talk about physics because I have not read the books.
I could not do your job because I am not trained for it.
Maybe, just maybe, you should learn what is in the bill BEFORE making an opinion?
Edit: vote Republican if you don't like it in November, but just please VOTE
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Sep 24, 2010 - 09:26am PT
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John said The President and most of the supporters of the bill said it would lower health care costs. It did not.
John I thought you were smarter than this. You're drifting into Chaz territory here. The goal of HCR was to get more people access (you can't afford health insurance if nobody will cover you or if you simply get dropped when you get sick) and to reform the entire healthcare system to begin bending the insane rises in healthcare costs downward. If you seriously thought Obama said "if we pass this bill then 6 months later ALL OF YOUR PREMIUMS will go down (even though they've been going way, way up for the last 2 years)" then you were living in some alternate universe. Furthermore, prices should change considerably once the individual mandate is put into effect (something that Repubs are fighting tooth and nail) there should be significant downward pressure on prices simply because there will be a much, much larger pool of people covered to spread costs over.
Also, John, did you support a public option? Because that would have helped lower premium costs. I'm guessing you did not.
Lastly, saying that this law didn't work like it's some foregone conclusion is like saying that Bush failed to "liberate" Iraq when 80% the troops were still on the plane flying over the Atlantic. Most of it still hasn't gone into effect yet, and I can tell you that the writing is on the wall inside the healthcare community. The next decade will be a time of huge downward pressure on spending and cost. We're all going to be working really hard to figure out how to deliver healthcare more efficiently.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Sep 24, 2010 - 10:42am PT
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The practice of paying for preventative treatments is definitely something most insurers view positively (I should know, I work for one, and help on stuff like this). Our plan reduces premiums for the next year if you doing things like getting vaccinations or have annual checkups.
As mentioned above, in theory it would would reduce costs across the system as disease is prevented or recognized earlier when it's easier to treat.
However, in practice that's not necessarily so. It is dependent on how many people actually use those preventative services. Just making them free isn't enough. You've got to get people to use them to recognize costs. The system, insurers and providers, aren't going to instantaneously see savings, so they will probably wait to see compliance before deciding how to re-price.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Sep 24, 2010 - 11:10am PT
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stevep- Those are all good points but in the past the preventative medicine simply often hasn't gotten pushed or paid for by insurance companies simply because when the people got sick they could drop them. The financial structure, which was largely left out of the law but is being worked on in other ways, is also a huge part of the problem since hospitals/providers don't usually get paid when people DON'T get sick. It's good to hear that your company is addressing the issue of prevention, since that's obviously the best way to keep costs down.
It's also why it's a good idea to remove sugary drinks and foods from public schools and I'm really puzzled why people are freaking out about that.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 24, 2010 - 11:15am PT
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My, my, how I got the ideologues' noses out of joint! No, I'm not pleased that premiums are going up, because I pay them. I'm simply pointing out that what the administration said would not happen -- that health care would cost more -- is happening.
If that offends you, then truth offends you. I'll give a more substantive reply after the weekend. I have better things to do than to deal with those who pretend that what the administration said wasn't said.
John
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Sep 24, 2010 - 11:16am PT
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John- I guess that's the difference between you and I. I don't think that actually listening to what people say is "ideological." I guess you could call me a "truth ideologue."
You're simply saying that he said something that he didn't. That's what you seem to be missing. Find me a quote where he says "premiums will stop going up within 6 months of passing this bill" or even HINTS at that.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 24, 2010 - 11:20am PT
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When health care and hospitals are the number one priority and continually are on the rise.
This proves America is sick.
This thread proves that America has no clue.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Sep 24, 2010 - 12:04pm PT
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Almost nice post Lois
Obama gets the blame for caving into the insurance industry, drug industry and big money, but it was the GOP that obstructed the good ideas. Obama tried.
Both parties are bought and paid for by the people they are supposed to regulate, that's where the problem came from
But the foot is in the door and we can move forward from here. If we repeal, we just step back and stay back
Peace
Karl
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Swimming in LEB tears.
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Sep 24, 2010 - 12:46pm PT
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LEB said I also wish to make one other point. This "big deal" thing about covering young adults on their parents policy till age 26 is a big joke. Much ado about nothing.
Sorry LEB but maybe to an old hen with no children like you that's just a "big joke" but the young graduates that I'm surrounded with made good use of it. One had to have knee surgery and was going to wind up paying for thousands of dollars out of pocket in follow ups and x-rays between graduation and when her benefits kicked in. Many new grads can't find jobs, much less jobs with benefits. I know when I graduated from college a long time ago I had to scramble to find a decent individual plan that would cover me at a reasonable price. It would have been a hell of a lot easier to just kick some cash to my parents and continue on theirs, and they sure as hell weren't going to let me go without insurance because if I got hurt climbing or in a car wreck and didn't have insurance that meant they were screwed.
Remember too that until this law was passed, if you had a chronic illness or a past medical problem you could be denied coverage or wind up paying piles more money if you switched policies. That meant that kids with chronic illnesses or injuries with long term effects would get bumped from coverage at 22 or 23 or whatever and then not be able to get or afford new coverage on their own.
That provision helped a LOT of people, even if it was largely just peace of mind for many.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Sep 24, 2010 - 01:12pm PT
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How's that *hope & change* working out for you ?
Awesome!!!
When Obama was elected we were on the verge of another great depression with massive unemployment for a very long time. Instead his policies kept it to only being the worst recession (the 2nd recession under Bush's policies BTW) since WWII.
A lot of the current unemployment is due to people's jobs that went away and aren't coming back. If you re-train or are willing to do the jobs that illegals due now (low paid) there is work out there. The rich are doing fine by the way, better than ever. It's the people without the skills in demand that are having a hard time.
I'm lucky to have to have the education and experience to be in an expanding industry and kept my job. My health care costs started going up long before Obama took office. I just bought a new property with 12 acres with a 4.25% 0 point 30 year fixed mortgage. Hope and change is working out fantastic for me!!
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corniss chopper
Mountain climber
san jose, ca
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Sep 24, 2010 - 01:30pm PT
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The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness.
You have to catch it yourself."
Benjamin Franklin
Liberals have purposely violated this sacred American Liberty again in the form of Obama Care.
Inevitably they will be made to feel sorry for ruling against the
will of the American people.
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storer
Trad climber
Golden, Colorado
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Sep 24, 2010 - 01:34pm PT
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LEB doesn't get it. My kid is on my retiree policy (as stated above I also am on Medicare)which I PAY FOR! He can now stay on that policy as he skis crazy lines after he graduates rather than being bumped off after I've paid for his insurance all these years. Thank you Barack.
LEB you're right. He's not on expensive medications or have other geriatric-oriented costs but you want should him in the pool. Why don't you? That's the point of the mandate. Freeloaders get insurance only when they get old costing everyone else. To register your car you are mandated to have insurance, right? I guess you'll say but owning a car is optional but a body isn't. But the logic is the same: you screw up and I pay.
Another part of the bill is insurance reform. It requires the Medical Loss Ratio (total health benefits paid out divided by total premiums paid in)to be increased. Some insurance companies are currently at 65% which yields billions in profits. If you own stock you might get a pittance but won't be living in the 15,000 sf mansion behind the iron gate as is the CEO. Thanks Barack!
The only long term solution is to remove the profit motive in health care.
That's a long way off but this is a start and you see how it's being slandered by the privileged class.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2010 - 01:35pm PT
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The constitution also says nothing about seat belt laws or the space program.
Therefore, those things should not exist in America.
Says nothing about blacks or women being allowed to vote.
Says nothing about the roads YOU drive on.
So, all these should be abolished.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Sep 24, 2010 - 01:48pm PT
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Norton,
The Space Program would be Constitutionally OK so long as it's run by the Military.
The roads you drive on are specifically authorized in Article 1, section 8 of the U.S. Constitution.
And the Constitution doesn't say anything about The People at large having a right to vote.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Sep 24, 2010 - 01:52pm PT
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So if we put national healthcare under the control of the military, that would make it constitutionally okay? LOL.. that would be funny.
I guess an argument could be made that a healthy nation is better able to defend itself.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 24, 2010 - 02:07pm PT
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Lois, since you have also read the bill in it's entirety, right quick off the top your vast command of the facts in the bill, how many more people will have health insurance than do not had right now?
How is this number NOT being not only the President of all his rich banker friends but also NOT to the tens of millions or very poor people who will have insurance?
One more if you would, your Repubs had control of congress under Bush, why did your people NOT pass ANY kind of healthcare reform?
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Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Sep 24, 2010 - 02:38pm PT
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The President and most of the supporters of the bill said it would lower health care costs. It did not.
The cost of healthcare insurance will not be affected until the mandatory insurance requirement goes into effect in 2014. That's been discussed SO much that I expect you knew that John but chose not to mention it.
I also find it ironic that the those on right who chide the Dems for the substance of this bill completely ignore how the right took their playbook in opposition to the plan directly from the healthcare industry. Shows you who they're representing. For more on that topic, check out Bill Moyers interview with former industry insider, Wendell Potter: http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/profile.html
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