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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Hootervillian,
I must have missed something, or maybe I'm just dense. Where is BM? Clue me in and I'll check the road conditions.
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Hootervillian
climber
Hooterville
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i bouldered with a guy named Chaz at Black Mountain a year ago or so, thought it was you. No?
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Gnat
climber
Smell A
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Depends on whether you want to top out or just bail.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Oh I get it. Black Mountain=BM duh.
No it wasn't me Hootervillian. I haven't been there for a couple of years. The last time I was there the road was closed so we hiked the BM trail to get there through the snow. That road does close right about now every year, snow or no snow.
My name's not really Chaz, it's Dave, but Dave was already taken on this forum so now I'm Chaz. The girl who gave me this computer has a psycho ex-boyfriend named David and she won't even say the word. So she calls me Chaz. I needed an alias anyway.
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Hootervillian
climber
Hooterville
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i think you meant 'top off' or just bail.
Let's just call it what it is shall we.
as a 'content' people we let multi-national corporate cartel interests strap all of our welfares to a finite resource. After we wipe the Wal-Mart out of our eyes, any 'synergy' we have as a people is lost in the non-combustable minutia of the body politic and the fear driven insecurities industries.
Choices? Define ourself's as the chosen ones and make it sound righteous?
Finally give into 'right' action and suffer the consequences of 'believing' the end justifies the means for so long?
It's been said time and time again, a billion in resources daily could put us on a path of renewable hope in a very short period of time. I believe that, it's what keeps me going.
Or not, keep preparing to be the 'last man standing' sounds like alot of fun. or maybe alot of you got tickets out of here? maybe i should have Fandango'ed.
BTW. the W of MD that SH was gonna use was the Euro, not the powdery sh#t we sold'em.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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It's the waffling middle ground of "going in light and fast" that Rumsfeld chose that is absolutely killing us in Iraq. The principal failing of this strategy was our inability to secure the weapons depots and caches and we continue to pay dearly for that mistake on a daily basis.
There are only two solutions - go big or get out. The latter is obvious and admits completely the stupidity of our initial action and reassures China that we as people lack resolve and willingness to sacrifice to follow through with our decisions effectively, regardless of the soundness of the initial decision to action.
Going how big?
Double our troop strength on the ground and triple the material resources to support them (particularly personal armor and armored vehicles of all types). What would this allow?
 Securing the Syrian and Iranian borders.
Training and equipping of Iraqi military and security forces.
Effective security support of reconstruction efforts.
Effective security support of supply lines.
How should this be done?
Secure the borders with US troops.
Protect Iraqi military and security recruits from the moment they show an interest in serving until the moment they are trained, armored, and armed and serving in mixed US/Iraqi military or security units.
Only train Iraqis in mixed Kurd/Sunni/Shiite units. Have the Iraqi government, Kurds, Sunnis, and/or Shiites conscript if necessary.
As Iraqis are trained deploy them in mixed US/Iraq units upping the percentage of Iraqis are they become available.
Armor both US and Iraqi units and either armor their vehicles or replace them with ones that are.
Replace local militia-based security forces with mixed US/Iraqi units as quickly as possible.
Protect reconstruction projects with overwhelming security.
Re-bid all reconstruction projects and allow EU, Russian, and Chinese companies to bid with the proviso that to bid you must also commit an amount equal to some percentage of the total contract won in dollars, manpower, or material to the effort to protect, train, and equip Iraqi military and security forces.
Institute rigorous auditing on all reconstruction funding.
Will such a course put us at further risk of terrorism on US soil?
Yes, and would further necessitate us to actually implement homeland security in our nation at the same time which would require:
Securing all ports.
Securing sea and air cargo.
Define first responder communications with a national protocol coordinated with military communications and do it in 6 months.
Supply and replace all first responder communications gear necessary for 100% compliance to new standards within 18 months of new standard availability.
Install radiological monitoring coverage for sea and air lanes and require strict adherance to those lanes.
Double the Coast Guard's material resources to police and secure approaching sea lanes in a tiered fashion.
Quadruple border personnel and material resources.
Institute some form of guest worker program along with a path to immigration and citizenship that can plausibly be attained by anyone willing to work for it.
Would this be incredibly expensive and burdensome on the American people and or society?
Absolutely! And it would be incredibly expensive, require reinstating the draft, and us all to contribute and alter our lifestyles. But we started this travesty and we're in it, like it or not. Failing to show resolve, sacrifice, and willingness to follow-through regardless of the outcome is a serious strategic mistake sending entirely the wrong message to the world. At this point a good-faith effort to both do the job as "right" in Iraq and protect ourselves at home is the only viable solution for getting through this fiasco. Both getting out and "staying the course" are disasterous courses with long-term strategic consequences for our Nation.
What will actually happen?
Republicans will bug out as quickly as possible in advance of the 2008 election after getting a serious "shot across the bow" in the 2006 election that support for the war is eroding very fast among in the Republican base, particularly in the South (those newly minted Republicans are fickle lot, aren't they).
What should we do after that?
Keep our own sh#t together, show a wit of sensitivity, realize we have to get along in the world, and finally acknowledge that terrorism, poverty, and oppression are inextricably linked. That when we actively and directly support oppression and poverty we support terrorism.
Rebuild the Guard and Reserves, equipping them no differently than active duty units.
Build a real national and state disaster/WMD response capability where none exists now.
Explicitly outlaw rendition and torture.
Double the budget for securing and decommissioning ex-Soviet nukes and chemical weapons.
Ratify all protocols of the Geneva Convention.
Re-constitute our now completely lapsed public health systems that once beat smallpox, polio, and TB - toolup for flu pandemics and biological attacks this time around.
Sign Kyoto, the Land Mine and Chemical Weapons Treaties.
Replace half of our Navy with more appropriate platforms and and with multi-mission, support ships capable of delivering humanitarian assistance where necessary.
Recognize the World Court.
Protect our food supply.
Rebuild human versus electronic intelligence around the world.
Rebuild our ability to effectively translate foreign intelligence.
Lead with our brains and not with our dicks.
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Hootervillian
climber
Hooterville
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i'd rather go for after that rule #13 first before we 'go big' to save face with our owners. after that, rules #1-12 sound good.
What will actually happen?
Republicans will bug out as quickly as possible in advance of the 2008 election after getting a serious "shot across the bow" in the 2006 election that support for the war is eroding very fast among in the Republican base, particularly in the South (those newly minted Republicans are fickle lot, aren't they).
seriously? awful lot of investment to walk away from for something as malleable and avoidable as public opinion.
me thinks we are rolling around to another 'Shock' therapy treatment.
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Hootervillian
climber
Hooterville
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Fattrad is exactly right. Going big means going bigger, and FT don't just stop with the S's.
Anyone really prepared for how that scenario ends?
Ed. and FT, awful tough love for Murtha from your boy. the things one must do to get elected.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Fattrad,
The Syrians are irrevalent, they simply need to be controlled. The Saudis are another matter, aside from imposing a settlement on the Israelis which would solve many of the Syrian and other problems, the Saudi problem we and the Brits created for ourselves is a big hassle on the penninsula. Saudi Arabia, along with accompanying smaller gulf states, is probably the one place that should have been permanently colonized and run by foreign powers with the population treated fairly and equitably in the process. Had we done that and slowly established the foundation for a democracy in the time since WWI then we wouldn't have the place overrun by zealous clerics and they wouldn't have a ready audience. The propping up of one tribe and a monarchy for all these years has been a disaster spawned of nothing but avarice, greed, and laziness. Puppetry always comes at a price eventually and inspite of playing it out badly on four contintents again and again for a century we don't seem able to learn that lesson.
There are no great solutions to the Saudi problem - "going in" is about a stupid a response as can be imagined. Why is it that you righties always gravitate to what looks like the "easy" military solution to every problem while genetically shying away from real diplomatic problems like North Korea and Iran? That thinking is exactly how we got into this mess - it's more thinking with our dicks. If you want to take on the entire Middle East and do it "right" then you better be prepared to abandon and/or rebuild more cities than New Orleans, wait in gas lines, see our economy tank, and generally live through complete hell in the US because that's what you're going to get. It would be yet another unnecessary distraction that would have the Chinese positively salivating over the all too predictable outcome...
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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The Federal Government should not be spending money on anything not specificaly mentioned in Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution. That pretty much limits it's spending to the Military, roads, courts, the Post Office, and the Pattent Office.
Dude, you lost this argument over a hundred years ago. Give it up. The supreme court says you're full of crap. So move on already.
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tomtom
climber
Seattle, Wa
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I retired in 1976 as a senior executive of General Motors, with responsibility for more than 35,000 employees,
Apparently, the writer is the corporate equivalent of W. By the mid 70's, GM was heading to the toilet as a company making crappy cars. The effects of their mismanagement are the reason that most folks would rather buy Japanese or European.
Pot ... kettle ... black.
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Chaz
Trad climber
So. Cal.
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Tomtom,
Thaks for pointing out that Stelzer guy was a "senior executive of General Motors". I totaly missed that the first time I read his manifesto. I knew there was something about that guy that left a bad taste in my mouth.
In 1974, my mother, having just divorced my father, bought a new '74 Chevy Malibu Classic reasoning being a single mother a reliable car was criticaly important. The car was in the shop with one problem after another before the odometer even read 20,000 miles. To make matters worse, the dealer made her feel as if the problems were her fault.
She replaced the Chevy with a Toyota Celica and the difference was night and day. That Toyota was 100% reliable for more than 350,000 miles and is probably still on the road today.
The way I see things, General Motors still owes my mother what she paid for, a new car, with all the expectation of reliability that goes along with it. That Stelzer clown was in charge of things there when all this is happening. I have one question for Stelzer: Dude, where's my car?
If I live to be 100 and drive to my last day, I will never, ever, take a chance buying another American made car.
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