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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I didn't read the case closely but it appeared the waiver (or absence of a waiver) had no affect. The court just said falling to one's death climbing is an inherent aspect of climbing. So long as the guy who fell was doing things within the realm of his experience he assumed the risk. Apparently, he had taken some classes and helped set up the anchor.
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ec
climber
ca
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right...just being there...assumption of risk by association...the piece of paper did not matter.
 ec
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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I remember hearing about this when it happened from someone who was present. My initial reaction was that the instructors were somewhat negligent for setting up a top rope using an anchor consisting solely of cams in a crack. I wouldn't feel comfortable unless there were at least a couple of bolts in the anchor.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Negligence is negligence.
Among those that don't climb, I can see how they would think that the assumption of risk is there. Among those that do climb, isn't the usual assumption that top roping should be 100% or close to it?
The "guides" or "instructors" blew something basic, something that a real guide would never have happen. I could see operator error, a loose rock falls from above, but a top rope anchor set by a competent guide should never fail.
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ec
climber
ca
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Cams in a crack would have been fine.
Cams and a Stopper on each side of a boulder sitting on a ledge was not.
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tuolumne_tradster
Trad climber
Leading Edge of North American Plate
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Wow that is bad.
Cams can "walk" out of cracks, especially if there are several climbers top roping & falling on an anchor.
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Gilroy
Social climber
Boulderado
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It was my second visit to the Leap when this accident occcurred and it was the second of three deaths I witnessed that summer. Sharpe & I were down in the trees thinking about the next route when we heard the commotion of this fellow's fall and the attendant reactions on the ground.
Ugly scene when we got there but it was the route in the corner which I think is Haystack and a second leader had started up the corner. The rappell line reached the ground attached to the victim about 15' to 20' right of the corner. Not sure of the victim's line of ascent.
We tried to clear the airway as there were signs of life though it was reported he impacted helmet first and, from the obvious injuries, I believed them. Thankfully EMT's climbing nearby came to assist and stopped us from beginning CPR. We noted the gear from the belay attached to the rope but declined to go up to inspect the belay ledge and retreated to the Strawberry Lodge.
When ec took the lawyers' for the family offer, I was glad a real expert would appear for the fellow. Sorry it still bugs you, lad. Tough work, but....
My thanks.
Keith
(edit) I carry an airway since this incident to this day when out and about.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Top rope anchor systems are considered safe if the anchors within each system are themselves set in two or more separate crack systems in a mountain face.
This is a red herring- it's perfectly acceptable to build an anchor in one crack, loose blocks are a different story.
McGowan and Veilleux each had significant experience setting anchors and they believed their system was "bombproof." Other than the anchor failure, no evidence was presented to suggest that this was a [**924] faulty conclusion, or that Veilleux and McGowan's selection of the site fell below the sport's norms for anchor installation.
Uhhhh, seriously? Are our norms that fukt up? Other than the fatality- the anchor was fine.
Assumption of risk is a strange one- what is the realistic expectation of survival while top roping?
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Dapper Dan
Trad climber
Menlo Park
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just curious ,
what does it mean to "carry an airway" with you ?
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Gilroy
Social climber
Boulderado
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Good Question: there are fancy technical models but what I carry is a tube with a 1-way valve and a shield of flexible plastic at its mid-point. Makes the decision to initiate mouth-to-mouth breathing easier with the obvious protection against infection from pathogens in bodily fluids.
kg
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habitat
climber
grass pass
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Top rope anchor systems are considered safe if the anchors within each system are themselves set in two or more separate crack systems in a mountain face
Huh?
edit: I like how they put everything in "quotes" which "implies" that they don't know what the "hell" they are "talking about"
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Srbphoto
Trad climber
Kennewick wa
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My first thought after reading the official court document was "God, I hate lawyers!"
Gilroy - they don't recommend mouth to mouth anymore (at least not in my CPR class). I don't want to hi jack the thread. There was a thread about it but I couldn't find it.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Sad. On multiple fronts. Sounds like one more kangaroo judgment from a kangaroo judicial system. (I don't call it a justice system anymore.) Some commentary above makes me nervous, too: An anchor built of only cams is substandard now? News to me. Aughh.
EDIT
Yeah. Compression only. What a relief: Now Gilroy doesn't have to carry his airway anymore.
Pate- Funny as usual. I don't like attorneys either.
I've belayed from that area 50 times since 1995. Funny strange, I always thought the tragedy happened over under Bears Reach, too.
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Gilroy
Social climber
Boulderado
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Srbphoto -
Tru'dat but it is not the universal procedure yet. Some have recently changed and mainly due to the general public's aforementioned aversion to fluid contact. This is first-responder stuff, not necessarily the principles of the professionals. They have equipment to do that job.
Interesting that this is the direction we are headed with CPR training. Keep it simple or... 'avoid the kiss with KISS.'
kg
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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makes me wonder whether there are any real principles of law in this area, or if it's basically just the whims of judges, lawyers, juries.
the judgement cites the doctrine of assumed risk, which i understand currently applies in some states and not in others. i thought it was a universal, but a recent conversation with a legal expert in this area indicates otherwise. perhaps it was a universal at the time of this decision.
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"considered safe if set in two or more crack systems"
"a large piece of mountain face shifted"
"they believed their system was 'bombproof'. Other than the anchor failure, no evidence was presented to suggest that this was a faulty conclusion, or that Veilleux and McGowan's selection of the site fell below the sport's norms for anchor installation ..."
sounds like the boulder worked loose with multiple lowerings, enough to release all of the pro. a big boulder they thought was heavy enough? to say "a large piece of mountain face shifted" sounds like a judge being pretty nice to the UC regents. a boulder on a ledge is not "a large piece of mountain face".
tell me what i'm missing.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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The UC regents were probably blissfully ignorant of the risks their guides were taking. Their guides were the experts, and they were ignorant, how should the school know?
It sounds like the jury decided against the school, but schools won on appeal. I agree with the jury. These guides sound dangerous.
That's great. It allows UC's to keep guiding rock trips, but maybe the schools should think twice about allowing people who have climbed for a two years or so to teach climbing.
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em kn0t
Trad climber
isle of wyde
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a big boulder they thought was heavy enough? to say "a large piece of mountain face shifted" sounds like a judge being pretty nice to the UC regents. boulders on ledges are not "large pieces of mountain faces". tell me what i'm missing.
Just hearsay but FWIW:
What I heard when the accident was described to me years later was that the anchor was set in two separate cracks; the section of rock between the two cracks appeared solid but was actually detached, and the pro failed when it shifted.
A subtle difference maybe, but certainly a way different picture than setting up an anchor on an obviously detached boulder.
You can imagine it was devastating to the people involved in the class. Talk of negligence can only add salt to wounds that may never heal.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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How big a block are we talking? EC? Microwave? VW Bug?
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Petch
Gym climber
knapsack crack
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just arrived at the leap a week or so before that. first weekend saw a guy take 80+ ft fall on the second pitch of the line. then the following weekend was the accident on haystack. I was headed up to climb and caught up to two climbers carrying a litter. I helped them carry the litter to the base. They said the victim took a volunteer lead fall off of his t.r. anchor, which pulled. he had his cams out and left of the standard anchor station(the double blocks with sling remnants between them). definately a sad situation.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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California courts are, surprisingly, lenient when it comes to sports accidents. There is a judicial philosophy that society is a better place when people are out doing exciting, socially interactive, competitive type stuff. Courts lean towards finding an assumption of risk because finding liability significantly limits opportunities. I'm not saying the case turned out as it should have, just that in these types of cases courts prefer to find non-liability.
Pate, the foregoing took me 3.7 hours. I will send you a bill forthwith.
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