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JOEY.F
Social climber
sebastopol
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Jul 23, 2010 - 02:13am PT
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Do I have my terminology cornfused, Tami? quite possible.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Jul 23, 2010 - 02:42am PT
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jul 23, 2010 - 11:41am PT
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Isn't all yoga "hatha" ? :-D
Nope. But within the context of what we are discussing, yeah, we're (except for Werner) talking Hatha yoga.
Other types of yoga:
Raja Yoga - considered to be classical yoga
Karma Yoga - The yoga of action
Jnana Yoga - The yoga of knowledge
Bhakti Yogo - The yoga of devotion
Then there is the Hatha Yoga. Included in this is the physical practice (Asana's). Asana for a long time (and in many circles still is) considered to be nothing more than a preparation for meditation. Thus the reason Raja Yoga is considered to be the classical form.
Within Hatha Yoga you have styles of yoga - some are formalized, others are not. Formalized styles include Ashtanga, Anusara, Bikram, Iyengar, etc.
Non-formalized: power yoga, vinyasa yoga, flow yoga.
(I could be incorrect on categorizing the non-formal ones this way - maybe I missed something. correct me if you feel the need.)
Within the formalized styles you stick to the method. The gura/teacher decided it's done "this way" and that is the way you do it. For example, the Ashtanga series are each done one way. The routine is exactly the same with no deviation. The strict Ashtangi's (most notably Pattabhi Jois) would say that when you meet a pose that you cannot do you stop - you go no further within that series. And until you can do that pose you cannot move past it.
Contrast that to Anusara where there is no set sequence to a class but there is a set suite of poses that make up the three Anusara syllabi. Within that context John Friend defines strict Principles of Alignment™. Additionally there is the spiritual practice (tantra) that further formalizes it.
Bikram (IIRC) has 26 poses.
So when someone says they went to an Anusara class/teach I know what they mean. Same with Ashtanga, Bikram, etc. But when you say you went to a flow yoga class or a power yoga class - to me that could mean anything. Yes, flow will have more vinyasa elements to it. Power yoga will have well... power elements.
I've taught at a YMCA and I sub at a local (Gold's Gym). There's no way to classify the type of yoga done there. I do know that a bunch of the teachers at Gold's come from the Anusara world but we cannot term it that in class. I am challenged to find ways of relating Anusara methods in a way that avoids Anusara speak (like teaching shoulder loop without ever saying "shoulder loop").
Edit: oh yeah... I'm still 100% in agreement with what Daphne said ;-)
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BrianH
Trad climber
santa fe
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Jul 23, 2010 - 11:55am PT
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I've always thought of hatha yoga as the physical exercise one does to prepare and quiet the body for meditation and the other seven limbs of yoga. It could take years or even decades.
Under hatha there are many flavors, or variations on a theme. For myself, starting out at an Iyengar studio taught me the basics of alignment that carry over into anything you do with your body. But I've also enjoyed astangha, and other vinyasa classes, once I had a basic understanding and respect for proper alignment.
But people are different and bodies change and shift as well. So I might suggest starting with someone who can really teach you the alignment necessary, so that some things become second nature. Things like how the inside of the feet are aligned, and how are you drawing up your arches.
Please please please do not compare yourself to others! The yoga porn of stylized perfection is pretty to look at, but it is pretty mutant. Yoga is finding your edge and surfing there, playing there, enjoying it. It is a slow unfolding.
To save money, you might also consider some yoga DVDs. I've very much enjoyed the Yoga Journal series with Rodney Yee and Patricia Walden, but those are more then 10 years old now, I'm not too sure what's come along since then. They can motivate and guide a home practice and you can can individual feedback form a good local teacher.
EDIT:
There's really no such thing as Yoga for Climbers, Golfers, Gardeners, Lovers or what have you. Yoga is yoga, and done properly it will carry over into every aspect of your life. Although I do remember one German guy who been practicing for about 6 months. He drew me aside, out of earshot of his wife, and in reply to my question about how his practice was going, he whispered to me:
It's really fantastic for my love life!
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jul 23, 2010 - 12:07pm PT
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Before I pick on qigongclimber just a little little bit I'll start by saying that a home practice is a very difficult thing to develop. Mine sucks. To develop a practice in the way he (?) has is admirable and I have immense respect for that.
I disagree with this comment, however:
The only reason to go to a class is to learn some new postures (asanas) or to just use it as a way of forcing yourself to regularly practice.
I totally get the "forcing yourself" part. It helps me greatly to have a scheduled class with a teacher I love and other students I enjoy seeing. I get distracted by bright shiny objects too easily at home. I'd also agree that going to a class is a great way to learn more poses.
Why I disagree is because there's something missing in this comment. Sitting at the gurus or teachers feet and accepting their offering, their Jnana, is an important part of the yoga tradition. The student eventually becomes a teacher. One of the highest ways of honoring your teacher is to take the knowledge (Jnana) you've been offered, cultivate it into your own wisdom (Vidyana) and offer it back through the seat of the teacher.
More specifically is, in the case of Anusara, you can't learn the alignment principles at home. you just can't. you need a teacher to observe you so they can offer adjustments.
I'd guess that qigongclimber has a fairly basic/mellow home practice. One that includes very low risk, high reward poses - poses that warm the body, get prana flowing (or in his case Qi ;-). A little yoga goes a long way. If that's the case than being your own teacher is fantastic. Myself I'm pushing the edge with some of the poses I do or want to do. I'd never try and teach them to myself. I'd end up doing them with poor alignment and eventually hurt myself. It's not the beginner yogi that get's hurt - it's the advanced yogi's.
I guess that's just a fairly long-winded way of saying there are many reasons to go to a yoga class.
Edit: BrianH in a certain way I'd agree that there is no such thing as a Yoga for (blank). Where I disagree is that I see different ways of applying what you can do with yoga to different activities. For instance, with pregnant women you'd offer only certain poses. If you are doing therapeutics you'd offer certain poses or teach in a certain way. I feel the same thing can be applied to climbers. We stress our bodies in ways that is drastically different than the rest of the world. I'm asking the question "Why is yoga good for climbing?" and through the lense of Anusara I'm attempting to answer that question. I could do the same with golfers (they'd probably be more focused on mediation than asana practice).
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Daphne
Trad climber
Mill Valley, CA
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Jul 23, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
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I also admire Qigong for his/her discipline in establishing a regular home practice.
But once again, I am in agreement with nature ;-) that you just can't learn alignment principles at home. In fact, you can just cement into your body the faulty alignment of structure that later might lead to pain and permanent wear and tear. It is very hard to see and feel in your own body that perhaps (for example) your pelvis isn't straight in a pose. It feels good to not have it straight, it is challenging when a teacher comes around and shows you that there is a more aligned way of holding your body. With practice and attention from a teacher, the new alignment then feels good. Also, poses are always extending to new levels and a teacher can be a support in moving to the next level -- not from an ego place, but each next level provides a fuller experience of energy flowing.
There is also something to be said for practicing in community and when you find a teacher you can really honor and respect, that is holding for you your highest and best, that is a wonderful thing.
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JOEY.F
Social climber
sebastopol
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Jul 23, 2010 - 12:58pm PT
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I practice a bit at home, but it is never the same as being guided in class by the teacher.
I'm in alignment with Daphne and Nature on this.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 23, 2010 - 01:36pm PT
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BrianH nailed it.
"I've always thought of hatha yoga as the physical exercise one does to prepare and quiet the body for meditation and the other seven limbs of yoga. It could take years or even decades."
Kardama Muni took 60,000 years to reach perfection of this yoga system and is not possible in this age of Kali.
Of course many of these modern "show bottle so called yoga" systems today are very popular and only produce some very limited material end results.
There are eight perfections in the astanga yoga system.
One who has attained them can become lighter than the lightest and greater than the greatest, and he can achieve whatever he likes.
But even achieving such material success in yoga is not the perfection or the ultimate goal.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jul 23, 2010 - 02:44pm PT
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I continue to agree with Daphne 100%
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BW
climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 23, 2010 - 06:18pm PT
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best yoga teacher I've found is here in Bishop. And the teacher (Mary Devore) is a great climber to boot. Sure helps the stemming and high steps. Balance too. That all said, I still like climbing a whole lot better than yoga.
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tinker b
climber
the commonwealth
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Jul 23, 2010 - 07:10pm PT
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i will also ditto on mary (drum) davore. an excellent teacher who is the best aligning. it is a combination of massage and alignment...
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jul 23, 2010 - 07:37pm PT
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Mary Drumm, eh? There's a name from the way back time machine for me. I've known her for years and years. Humboldt (if my foggy mind remembers).
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BW
climber
Bishop, CA
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Jul 23, 2010 - 10:11pm PT
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The fog lifts. Yes, Nature, maiden name is Drumm.
She seems to know my body and its past injuries and overuse better than I do. Weird too, seems to know what I've been up to all week. If coming down from the high country she steers the class toward opening up our legs (in my case, sore legs). If local cragging or working on the house, she works on the back and neck. Very intuitive she is.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jul 23, 2010 - 11:34pm PT
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When you see her again tell her Doug La Farge says hello. It's been 15+ years since we've seen each other but I'm sure she'll remember me. Next time I'm in Bishop I'll catch one of her classes.
A touch of modern yoga history.
John Friend, the founder of Anusara, was at one point a level three (not sure that's the exact level nomenclature) certified Iyengar instructor. But he start to branch off and away from Iyengar especially with the way he applied alignment principals. So he gave up his certification because he felt it was necessary to continue to honor Mr. Iyengar. The point in the little history lesson is to say that Anusara draws it's alignment foundation from Iyengar. However, John took that foundation and really formalized it. so there is a cross over. I've never done an Iyengar class but look forward to it.
And since we are giving shout outs to great teachers.... I just got out of an expansion class with Darren Rhodes. Darren is world class. Probably one of the top 25 Anusara teachers in the world. One of John's favorites. And he is.... after all.... the Anusara poster boy:
It's kind of hard to tell. Third box in form the left, third box up from the bottom is Dee doing a headstand with no hands - Niralamba Sirsasana.
So if you ever pass through Tucson on a friday night catch his 5:45 expansion class.
Yo! Dee!
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Daphne
Trad climber
Mill Valley, CA
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Jul 23, 2010 - 11:57pm PT
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^^^ Oh my!
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JOEY.F
Social climber
sebastopol
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Jul 24, 2010 - 02:28am PT
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^^^I agree with Daphne, Yikes! Pracitce is tomorrow am. Possible TR. Taking these images and discussion along for the flow.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jul 24, 2010 - 03:33am PT
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No possible TR. Let's hear it.
I love this stuff.
More.
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wally Fox
climber
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Jul 24, 2010 - 09:41am PT
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I have found that Bikram Yoga always heals my climbing injuries. It also helps to increase recovery time. The benefits are numerous, I would say though find a yoga practice that you like.
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bestill
Trad climber
s. ca.
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Jul 24, 2010 - 11:01am PT
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there is a new book titled,Yoga Body:the origin of modern posture practice by mark singleton. it might interest some of you yoga aficionados. mark is a yoga practioner and a tai chi enthusiast. apparently many of the asanas that are practiced today have a much more recent pedigree than previously thought.a well researched book that is very readable.
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nature
climber
Tucson, AZ
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Jul 24, 2010 - 06:38pm PT
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bestill - have you read the book? I'm going to ask around to see what my teachers think of it. But it sounds like a good one. Thanks for the recommend.
Other books (the two I gotta pimp for my bro):
http://www.bruce-bowditch.com/yoga-practice-guide-1/index.html
http://www.bruce-bowditch.com/yoga-asana-index/index.html
Not only am I blessed to have Darren here in Tucson but Bruce is an amazing yogi, teacher, and a great friend. his work in therapeutics is top notch.
check out some of his videos.
What you state is, in my understanding, correct. If you attempt to trace yoga back to its origins you quickly find that what yoga looked like 1000 years ago is nothing like it looks today. It's evolved and it continues to evolve.
In a certain sense what yoga is wasn't formalized until hundreds of years after people started practicing.
To be simplistic about it yoga's origins lie in either (both!) the works of Patanjali (The Yoga Sutra's) and the Gita. Neither of those works mention asana at all. Karma, Bhakti, and Jnana yoga owe their origins to the Gita.
But even with that said it's difficult at the end of the day to nail down all the origins. We just have a pretty good idea.
the word Yoga is derived from the word yuj (a sanskrit word) and it means to yoke, or union. That word seems to first appear in the Gita.
I highly recommend reading the Gita. It's a powerful text even if the serious sanskrit philosophers can't agree at all on its meaning.
In about 15th century CE the Hatha Yoga Pradipika was written and is one of the oldest texts on yoga in terms of asana practice. They do some weird stuff in it - stuff we don't often practice much any more.
Were people practicing asana 2000 years ago? Certainly not in the way we practice it today. Should we practice it they way they use to 2000 years ago. I'd say no - this isn't the 1st century CE anymore. most of the world isn't populated by a bunch of renunciates. The essence of yoga can be similar but the practice will continue to evolve. (or de-evolove as I expect some to argue).
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