Vanishing Glaciers of the Greater Himalaya

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HighTraverse

Trad climber

Bay Area

Oct 11, 2011 - 02:05pm PT

HT ? Your point with regard to mine?

Tami, just tweaking you. Didn't mean to offend you.

cc
yeah.........and what causes the haze and soot? But that's just a diversion.

Go ahead, deny the extensive body of scientific evidence and the physics and chemistry that explain how it all works. History is full of people who deny the conclusions of science.
The earth is flat; gravity pulls harder on more massive objects so they must fall faster; the sun and planets revolve around the earth; god made the earth in 6 days, rested on the 7th and we're here 6000 years later as proof; time doesn't slow down if you move really fast.
Perhaps someday you'll accept the science, probably not.

The scientific explanations will certainly become more refined therefore they must be erroneous now so we can't act on them.
reductio ad absurdum

corniss chopper

climber

breaking the speed of gravity

Oct 11, 2011 - 03:36pm PT

HT - Not denying that there is a vast body of climate information that is useful only for creating jobs to compile more and more such information.

When they redefined breathing as air pollution that's when they've wandered
into Crazyville and become a laughingstock.

Global Warming Myth Exposed:
Soot From Cooking Fires Melting Himalayan Glaciers
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sheppard/2007/08/03/global-warming-myth-exposed-soot-cooking-fires-melting-himalayan-glac

-------------------------

Y’know, some of these climate games are getting kind of boring. I’m tired
of people who are paid with my taxes hiding their data, results, and
findings. Case in point, the “Community Earth System Model” of the
University Center for Atmospheric Research (UCAR) hides their data and
denies me read only access...

(funny)
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2011/05/06/top-secret-noforn-restricted-access-climate-model-results/

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Oct 11, 2011 - 04:41pm PT

CC's objections are predictable, but he hasn't provided any more evidence than previously, and when you look at the references he/she cites, you find that the carbon black, aerosol, etc... is a factor, but only a factor. See for instance the post:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=970221&msg=1553986#msg1553986
and posts up thread of that.

In general, scientists are studying the effects of these aerosols where there had been previously large uncertainties in their contribution. In many of the studies, the effects are much more complex than have been represented by CC... and do not explain the rapid decline of the glaciers.

I remember that people used to say: "a stream clears itself in 100 feet" while pissing in the same stream... problem is when you have hundreds of thousands to millions of pissers, you might not have 100 feet to clear it in... so now it costs to piss, because you actually have to pay your municipality to treat the water before dumping it in the stream.

My guess is that you pay a lot more for that than any proposed carbon tax... which just recognizes the same obvious fact... we can't continue to "piss" into the atmosphere, it's not going to clear itself.

corniss chopper

climber

breaking the speed of gravity

Oct 11, 2011 - 05:57pm PT

Ed - The billions of poor who daily cook food over open wood fires are not going to change over to some non polluting alternative that is more expensive.

Any climate scheme that does not accept this reality is an exercise in fantasy.

cliffhanger

Trad climber

California

Oct 11, 2011 - 06:12pm PT

CC - "The billions of poor who daily cook food over open wood fires are not going to change over to some non polluting alternative that is more expensive."

This shows how little CC understands. The burning of biomass carbon, like wood, makes no contribution to increased atmospheric CO2 levels because it is just part of the carbon that's already contained in the active carbon cycle. Burn it or let it rot, the carbon in wood or any biomass is going to return to the atmosphere as CO2. To keep wood or biomass from returning as CO2 to the atmosphere one would have to go to extraordinary effort and expense to prevent fungus, termites, or other decomposers (including fire) from breaking it down into CO2.

corniss chopper

climber

breaking the speed of gravity

Oct 11, 2011 - 06:42pm PT

war - you're a racist. Go away. Get help.

corniss chopper

climber

breaking the speed of gravity

Oct 11, 2011 - 06:43pm PT

cliffhanger - shows you're not following the thread very closely.(surprise!)

To bring you up to speed: I think the aerosols from billions of cooking fires
are the main forcing vector causing the glaciers to melt faster.
Albedo change - particles falling onto the glaciers, solar heating, etc.

Warmist's think the near undetectable world temperature change is responsible which they think is caused by increasing CO2 levels while
denying solar variability could be a factor.

Embarrassingly they have no monitored air temperature data at the glaciers to prove their case while there is a lot of dirty ice to prove mine.

cliffhanger

Trad climber

California

Oct 11, 2011 - 06:53pm PT

Sorry CC. Smoke is indeed a concern, but one that can be fairly easily dealt with.

To prevent the smoke teach them to build an efficient cook stove, the rocket stove:

http://solarcooking.wikia.com/wiki/Rocket_Stove

"A rocket stove is an innovative clean and efficient cooking stove using small diameter wood fuel which is burned in simple high-temperature combustion chamber containing an insulated vertical chimney which ensures complete combustion prior to the flames reaching the cooking surface."

http://www.aprovecho.org/lab/index.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_stove

http://www.pyroenergen.com/articles08/eco-rocket-stove.htm

http://boingboing.net/2008/06/26/rocket-stoves-use-tw.html

A Twig Burning Camp and Emergency Stove!:

http://www.pond-doctor-dave.com/rocket-stove.html

Build it with mud:

http://www.rippleafrica.org/environment-projects-in-malawi-africa/ripple-rocket-cookstove-africa

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Oct 11, 2011 - 07:56pm PT

Embarrassingly they have no monitored air temperature data at the glaciers to prove their case while there is a lot of dirty ice to prove mine.
obviously you haven't read your own citations, which conclude that "dirty ice" is not sufficient to account for the changes... but including the increases in global mean temperature are required to explain the totality of the phenomena.

east side underground

Trad climber

Hilton crk,ca

Oct 11, 2011 - 08:06pm PT

Thanks Jeff, Hey cc Dr Deeg is a REAL SCIENTIST, how about you? He's one of the poineers in satalite imagery, Dean of the center for environmental optics at UCSB . What are your qualifications?

corniss chopper

climber

breaking the speed of gravity

Oct 11, 2011 - 08:37pm PT

Ed - The power of the CO2 clans at this time makes it mandatory that this harmless gas is blamed in all possible publications as the main GW culprit, lest other ideas gain traction with the public ie black carbon + ice = melting glaciers.

Just the price of getting alternate ideas out.

Remember the carrot farmers. Interesting that it works for them but you think it can't on glaciers.
http://www.carrotjuice.jp/snow/

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber

Livermore, CA

Oct 11, 2011 - 11:43pm PT

The power of the CO2 clans at this time makes it mandatory that this harmless gas is blamed in all possible publications
starting back in 1896 with the first explanation of the Greenhouse effect in the atmosphere, a result of the CO2 there...

...a paper which you have, no doubt, avoided reading too. With it's prediction of rising temperatures due to coal burning.

You have little or no understanding of physics at all CC and so you view this all as superstition... funny you haven't even the level of understanding that's been around for more than a century. What has been happening since has been a wonderful expansion of our knowledge of climate. And that includes measuring the warming, which is none trivial, but real and understandable in terms of our science.

What we should do about it is completely separate from the fact it is happening, but because we're making it happen, we actually can do something about it... and not let it slip onto future generations to deal with... don't you think?

rottingjohnny

Sport climber

mammoth lakes ca

Oct 12, 2011 - 12:12am PT

CornSquat...Stop reading the exxon comic books and move on up to adult periodicals....RJ

klk

Trad climber

cali

Oct 12, 2011 - 12:24am PT

mythical temperature rise

i dont like this avatar either.

dude, honestly, how many do you need? do you really have this much free time?

August West

Trad climber

Where the wind blows strange

Oct 12, 2011 - 12:26pm PT

Perhaps 'contributing to' or 'accelerating' but I think the climate is always changing, myself. There is no steady state and never has been, illusory.

Sure the climate has always changed. But compared to a geological time scale, the climate in the past 10,000 or so years has been surprisingly stable. It is perhaps not coincidence that this is also when civilization happened to develop.

Human induced changes are going to push the climate out of the relatively stable niche it has been in. We (or at least our descendents) will find out how well civilization will cope.

Reilly

Mountain climber

The Other Monrovia- CA

Oct 12, 2011 - 01:01pm PT

Corniss' only hope is that Tambora will blow again and plunge us into another
"Year without a summer", or two. Actually, it has been showing signs. There's still hope, Corniss!

corniss chopper

climber

breaking the speed of gravity

Oct 12, 2011 - 01:41pm PT

You Warmists obviously are suffering from some sort of
climate driven mental retardation.

Such menacing epidemics of climate stupidity regularly lead to extinction
events for weaklings who are less able to survive in a constantly changing climate.

Researchers want to remind Warmists afflicted with
Catastrophic Climate Stupidity -CCS-
to please try to remain calm and not run around outside like berserk chicken little's without dressing properly for the outdoors.

cliffhanger

Trad climber

California

Oct 12, 2011 - 02:31pm PT

First, with higher temperatures more water evaporates from the ocean, leading to more snowfall. Second, the more rugged areas of the Himalaya have glaciers that are covered with debris from surrounding mountains. The debris insulates the glacier from the warming climate. These 2 effects together cause many glaciers in more rugged regions to remain stable or even to advance in spite of higher temperatures.

Here's a good article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/climatechange/8284223/Some-Himalayan-glaciers-are-advancing-rather-than-melting-study-finds.html