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pc
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2005 - 04:41pm PT
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Yikes. Sorry man. I didn't realize you were beyond debate.
So..I'm wit Him or I'm ag'in him. That's harsh.
'Absolutes can only lead to the dark side, Anakin' - Obi Wan(?)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 22, 2005 - 04:49pm PT
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Jody: "...the God of Christianity is the only one that asks for NOTHING but faith in Him."
That's a fair trade for a god that gives NOTHING but corruption and divisiveness in return. There is no god, only people who seek to manipulate those that live in fear.
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Spinmaster K-Rove
Trad climber
Stuck Under the Kor Roof
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Nov 22, 2005 - 04:51pm PT
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Actually he chose to use the words "I Believe" because it was part of the NPR revival of the "I Believe" series where people write short essays on any subject with the statement "I Believe." Just another in their unpatriotic, unamerican attempts to convert the whole country to a socialist dictatorship run by Alan Alda.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Nov 22, 2005 - 04:57pm PT
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"I will say this, you guys that believe there is no God better be right, because if you aren't..."
So I take it Jody that you put more faith in the Old Testament than the New Testament?
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Hootervillian
climber
3rd canoe at Bagby, OR
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Nov 22, 2005 - 04:59pm PT
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Jody,
You "believe" it in your heart, yet you leave the door of doubt open with you guys that believe there is no God better be right, because if you aren't?
I'm sensing a little internal conflict, maybe the 'case' isn't getting a fair trial in the Belief Ventricle™ better move the venue to the brain.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 22, 2005 - 05:30pm PT
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Dingus,
As Spin points out it was written for NPR's revival of the old "I believe" series - "I believe" being the [literary] vehicle for the series. You read it again - he's leaping into "I believe" for the literary exercise not leaping from a evidence-based to faith-based system of belief. It's a rhetorical excursion to the "dark side" to show his view of the positive consequences of accepting complete and sole responsibility for every aspect of our existence here on Earth.
PS This ties in with your RC post on naming bouldering problems - surely no boulder problem should have a name longer than god's...
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pc
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2005 - 06:35pm PT
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Dingus, Healyje,
You're both on the same side of this arguement, no? Can't understand the angst...
Dingus, I agree with you that both pieces are fairly light and even in Buckley's case, halfhearted.
Belief/Faith definitions aside.
How do you come to the conclusion Jillette is expressing anything to do with "faith" in this article?
pc
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pc
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2005 - 06:47pm PT
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Dingus. You're logic is a bit off on this one.
You're assuming the starting point is that there is a God. If that's the case then yes, I have faith there is no God because I can't prove there isn't. (That'll always be a tough one because it's an "evolving" target)
If you start from scratch, as any logical thinker/scientist would, you don't have to leap anywhere. You believe in the facts at hand. Nothing else.
No?
pc
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 22, 2005 - 06:47pm PT
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pc,
The linear and circular posturing of two apes with faiths of logic and chaos is destined to evolve into a Tango every now and then.
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pc
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2005 - 06:49pm PT
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;) Too right.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 22, 2005 - 06:56pm PT
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Dingus,
It's 3:51pm - god is no show so far today. But I'll give him until 5:00pm as I'm busy tonight. Don't you think being god and all he'd be able to put in an appearance in 69 minutes. I'll be at a movie tonigh at 10:15pm and he's also welcome to show up in the previews or even the audience so long as he doesn't make too much noise or give away the ending (oh, and it would be nice if the popcorn could be hot and perfectly salted if he is coming)...
Dingus, actually, now that I think about it, you show up all the time with good intentions and when I least expect it. Based on good works and frequency of appearance out of the ether maybe I've been looking in all the wrong places all this time and the evidence has been right in front of my eyes all along...
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426
Sport climber
The Pet Sematary, TN
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Nov 22, 2005 - 07:01pm PT
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Pascal's Gambit, durn it!
Closely related to Pascal's Flaw.
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Donny... the OHHH!- Riginal
Sport climber
Boald'r Effin See Oh
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Nov 22, 2005 - 07:06pm PT
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"....I think I use the term radical rather loosely, just for emphasis. If you describe yourself as “Atheist,” some people will say, “Don’t you mean ‘Agnostic’?” I have to reply that I really do mean Atheist. I really do not believe that there is a god - in fact I am convinced that there is not a god (a subtle difference). I see not a shred of evidence to suggest that there is one. It’s easier to say that I am a radical Atheist, just to signal that I really mean it, have thought about it a great deal, and that it’s an opinion I hold seriously. It’s funny how many people are genuinely surprised to hear a view expressed so strongly. In England we seem to have drifted from vague wishy-washy Anglicanism to vague wishy-washy Agnosticism - both of which I think betoken a desire not to have to think about things too much.
People will then often say “But surely it’s better to remain an Agnostic just in case?” This, to me, suggests such a level of silliness and muddle that I usually edge out of the conversation rather than get sucked into it. (If it turns out that I’ve been wrong all along, and there is in fact a god, and if it further turned out that this kind of legalistic, cross-your-fingers-behind-your-back, Clintonian hair-splitting impressed him, then I think I would chose not to worship him anyway.)
Other people will ask how I can possibly claim to know? Isn’t belief-that-there-is-not-a-god as irrational, arrogant, etc., as belief-that-there-is-a-god? To which I say no for several reasons. First of all I do not believe-that-there-is-not-a-god. I don’t see what belief has got to do with it. I believe or don’t believe my four-year old daughter when she tells me that she didn’t make that mess on the floor. I believe in justice and fair play (though I don’t know exactly how we achieve them, other than by continually trying against all possible odds of success). I also believe that England should enter the European Monetary Union. I am not remotely enough of an economist to argue the issue vigorously with someone who is, but what little I do know, reinforced with a hefty dollop of gut feeling, strongly suggests to me that it’s the right course. I could very easily turn out to be wrong, and I know that. These seem to me to be legitimate uses for the word believe. As a carapace for the protection of irrational notions from legitimate questions, however, I think that the word has a lot of mischief to answer for. So, I do not believe-that-there-is-no-god. I am, however, convinced that there is no god, which is a totally different stance and takes me on to my second reason.
I don’t accept the currently fashionable assertion that any view is automatically as worthy of respect as any equal and opposite view. My view is that the moon is made of rock. If someone says to me “Well, you haven’t been there, have you? You haven’t seen it for yourself, so my view that it is made of Norwegian Beaver Cheese is equally valid” - then I can’t even be bothered to argue. There is such a thing as the burden of proof, and in the case of god, as in the case of the composition of the moon, this has shifted radically. God used to be the best explanation we’d got, and we’ve now got vastly better ones. God is no longer an explanation of anything, but has instead become something that would itself need an insurmountable amount of explaining. So I don’t think that being convinced that there is no god is as irrational or arrogant a point of view as belief that there is. I don’t think the matter calls for even-handedness at all."
Haw....man Douglas Adams ruled.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 22, 2005 - 07:10pm PT
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"There is no Tooth Fairy" - whew, there, I've said it. I know that's a big leap from "there is no evidence to support the existence of a Tooth Fairy", but sometimes we have to make these leaps of faith from fact to conclusion and incorporate those conclusions as "truths" in an evidence-based system of belief.
[Note: feel free to substitute Yeti, Loch Ness Monster, Nellie, Sasquatch, dragons, god, holy and unholy ghosts, the Devil, exit strategy from Iraq, or any other figment of your imagination for the starring role of Tooth Fairy.]
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yo
climber
NOT Fresno
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Nov 22, 2005 - 07:17pm PT
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I saw the Yeti in moonlight at Kangtega base camp. Seriously.
Proceed.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 22, 2005 - 07:19pm PT
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Dingus,
Take your filthy ape paws off her diaphinous drawers right now you bonobonous beast...
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pc
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 22, 2005 - 07:20pm PT
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"What are the facts at hand please?" - DMT
 I was born in California.
I eat, crap, sleep, drink, love, hate, fight, etc.
My family decided to move to Canada while watching Watergate.
Went to school, learned some stuff
Got a job, learned some stuff and made some money
My father died of lung cancer
Quit my job and went climbing for a time
Met my wife to be, got another job, had kids, got a mortgage
Found SuperTopo, wasted some time, debated some sh#t
This is the rough foundation I'm building from. Other than some random dudes lobbing in "there's a God" statements from the side. God's not on the radar.
pc
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 22, 2005 - 07:31pm PT
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Yo,
Take a look at "Quantitative Population Ecology" - a bit technical, but you basically can't have "one" of anything - you have to have, or recently had, a population of an organism and that means they would have a ecological range and pretty quickly you realize that it's pretty damn unlikely someone wouldn't be on a first name basis with a Yeti at any given point in time if "one" were around. Ditto for a Loch Ness monster - just what protein source would multiple monsters have been surviving on all these centuries in a fairly sterile lake?
It was obviously Dingus you saw...
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Nov 22, 2005 - 07:34pm PT
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have I posted in this thread already?
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