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tenesmus
Trad climber
slc
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Llewellen, you have one of the best user names ever.
"Llewelyn Moss: Well how would you describe him?
Carson Wells: Well I guess I'd say he doesn't have a sense of humor. His name is Chigurh.
Llewelyn Moss: Sugar?
Carson Wells: Chigurh. Anton Chigurh."
"Wendell: Aww, hells bells. They even shot the dog!"
"
Anton Chigurh: I'm looking for Llewelyn Moss.
Manager: Did you go up to his trailer?
Anton Chigurh: Yes, I did.
Manager: Well, I'd say he's at work. Do you want to leave a message?
Anton Chigurh: Where does he work?
Manager: I can't say.
Anton Chigurh: Where does he work?
Manager: Sir, I ain't at liberty to give out no information about our residents.
Anton Chigurh: Where does he work?
Manager: Did you not hear me? We can't give out no information."
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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I agree with Greg Barnes about the strength of 5/16" buttonheads. If it's a good placement in solid granite, and the hanger is sound, leave it!
By the way, I have a big bag of Fixe 5/16" buttonheads. If anyone wants to buy them, I'll sell them cheap!
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Greg Barnes
climber
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NOOO - don't sell them, toss them in the trash! Wrong size (8mm not 5/16"), junk metal, and if anyone actually manages to place them they always break when removing (just snap off at the head - not much work involved). So a replacement bolt will be in a new hole instead of reusing the hole.
Fixe really should stop selling them. I've been telling them that for years...
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Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
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Greg, I can't disagree! The few times I have tried to place them, they buckled going in. I have kept them thinking I might find a larger bit that would make them usable. I trust your advice though, and will toss them out.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 11, 2010 - 03:33pm PT
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Great info!
Kate and I found Bill Russell's 5/16" buttonheads on Bad Seed to be fully bomber still, so we didn't have to replace any.
Does anybody have any of these things left? If I were at an El Cap anchor, and had to replace a couple old 1/4-inchers, how would people feel about one 3/8" bolt, and one 5/16" buttonhead, were such a critter still available?
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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May 11, 2010 - 05:18pm PT
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"The first rule of 5/16" buttonheads is to not mess with them unless there's a good reason!"
No
The first rule of 5/16" buttonheads is:
NOBODY TALKS ABOUT 5/16" BUTTONHEADS!
You already know the second rule...
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 11, 2010 - 05:34pm PT
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“Does anybody have any of these things left? If I were at an El Cap anchor, and had to replace a couple old 1/4-inchers, how would people feel about one 3/8" bolt, and one 5/16" buttonhead, were such a critter still available?”
Pete, I’ve got a few of the original Rawls hidden away, but am saving them. Why would you want to replace a non-stainless quarter-incher with another non-stainless bolt if it is at a belay that needs to be upgraded? Why not put in a stainless 5-piece that is stronger, will last longer, and is easier to remove for future replacement?
Rick D – PLEASE don’t use the Fixe 8mm buttonheads!!!!!!!!! They are total crap, no matter what size hole you drill, no matter what kind of rock. Totally BOGUS!!! Please re-read what Greg B wrote above. The only thing those bolts are good for is (soft) shrapnel!!!
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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May 11, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
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....who cares, i still have a small stash of Rawls
muahahhahahahhahahhaahaha
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 11, 2010 - 05:37pm PT
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Well, you apparently cared enough to post a link and pull out your calculator! Thanks for your understanding.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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May 11, 2010 - 05:39pm PT
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Please don't go and use 8mm bolts in 5/16th holes. Tolerances matter and the performance is rated for the bolt being put in the correct size hole. Just don't do it.
Yes you can still get 5/16th SS buttonheads...I think Powers sells em.
kev
Mucci - don't you have a few?
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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May 11, 2010 - 09:33pm PT
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[quote="Bryan Law"]"Pete, I’ve got a few of the original Rawls hidden away, but am saving them. Why would you want to replace a non-stainless quarter-incher with another non-stainless bolt if it is at a belay that needs to be upgraded? Why not put in a stainless 5-piece that is stronger, will last longer, and is easier to remove for future replacement?"[/quote]
Hey Bryan,
Long time, no share of O.E., eh? Where the heck have you been hiding, anyway? Coming to the bridge this spring?
The answer to your question is that placing a five-piece 3/8-incher requires a huge amount of hand drilling! And on a big wall this can add up to huge amounts of time and effort. How do you feel about the shorter stud-type stainless 3/8-inchers?
I ask about the 5/16 buttonheads because the ones on Bad Seed were still so bomber. In fact, BITD there was an article in one of the rags by Duane Raleigh praising the 5/16.
Thoughts?
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Greg Barnes
climber
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May 11, 2010 - 11:25pm PT
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Chief - they are not stainless so they will rust.
Also, they are so strong that instead of compressing when you pound them in, they will just carve slots into soft to medium rock - I've seen this at Pinnacles, Red Rocks, and grainy granite.
And of course even 3/8" buttonheads will be subject to freeze/thaw cycling which will reduce their strength over time - although this is much more important in high altitude south-facing stuff (TONS of freeze/thaw cycles per year) than most places.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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May 11, 2010 - 11:51pm PT
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I have loads of 1/4 rawl drive in 1" and 1.5" (or whatever the longer one is)
Saving them too, for when I am weak :)
I can attest to the 5/16ths being bomber if correctly placed. Clint/Greg's comment on pulling then hammering back and forth is the only way I have ever pulled a 5.16ths without damaging the rock.
I just rap on by when I see those, but most you see out there are old style not fixe's 8mm. Slightly different but man what a difference a bit makes.
Strider has a picture of a placement that straight up buckled on him (good photo of what the Fixe rawl drives do when you go to place them)
Tork has pulled some 5/16ths at parkline, bent the fork something fierce but no damage to the rock. It did look like a PITA.
What type of rivet is on all of those column routes? Nanook?
Mucci
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 12, 2010 - 02:12am PT
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Just read this thread in its entirety after briefly skimming it a few days ago… Hadn’t read the entire thread when I replied to Pete’s question. Yeah, some really great info here and again, Greg proves why he is the director of the ASCA. Or is that vice versa? ;)
“I NEVER re-drill the original hole!
I always drill fresh holes for the new bolts as the old one may be compromised, enlarged etc.”
I read your later responses and I hear you on a lot of that, Chief – you can only do what you can do, based on what you’re dealing with, but… Ahhhhhhhh!!!! Those words still make me cringe! I most certainly agree with what Clint, Llewelyn, Greg, Paul, et al have said about reusing the original hole. A new hole is always a last resort!
Chief, which buttonhead bolts (exactly) are you referring to? Based on Greg’s response I assume split-shaft carbon steel. Yeah, what Greg said… again. I’ve got a collection of carbon steel 3/8” fatty bolts – both buttonhead and thread-head split-shaft. I would hate to place one again, unless it was for some stupid one-time purpose and I had a mini-sledgehammer. Maybe the foundation on someone’s house… Hey, any of you remember the first bolt on that direct start to Zodiac that you all are so fond of? That’s a 3/8” thread-head split-shaft and man oh man… it required like a million hits with a Yo hammer to get the darn thing seated. Don’t know how you’d ever pull it cleanly.
Nanook has replaced original 1/4” rivets with 3/8” stainless Spike buttonheads without a hanger on wall routes (link to Spike bolts found 5 posts above…). For both ethical and practical reasons, I dislike these large Spike “rivets.” But all of that talk can be found in past threads. Where’s Mad Bolter’s Wings when you need ‘em? In testing, I found the 1/4” versions of the stainless Spike buttonheads to be about as good as trying to stick my pinky finger into the hole to hang from… Seriously, they go in like butter and pop right back out with a slight funkness test. YIKES!!!! Not for climbing.
Chief, when you say that rock damage is increased when you are trying to “funk” the rusty 5-piece cone out of a hole in less than perfect rock, do you mean that the outer “layer” of the surface of the rock craters/blows out around the hole as the cone is freed? I’d be psyched to meet up to help out with your Eastside endeavors and to “talk shop.” Thanks for your efforts out there, Chief! Looking forward to clipping some half-inch stainless! Dreamy!
Klaus and I placed both the original Rawl 5/16” buttonheads and the 8mm Fixe buttonheads on Cataclysmic Megasheer on the South Face of HD. After placing the two different bolts into the same rock type again and again, we quickly realized that one was dramatically inferior to the other. I am bummed that we used those Fixe buttonheads, which certainly need to be replaced way sooner than later. Having learned by experience, I strongly suggest again that these 8mm Fixe bolts should not be used, ever, anywhere.
Pete, what you are basically saying is that you want to place 5/16” buttonheads instead of 3/8” 5-piece bolts because the 5/16” bolt is an easier shortcut. And since when have you been in a huge hurry on a wall and worried about time? :)
You will have a lot more problems with the bit binding if you are drilling a 1/4” hole out to 5/16”, rather than drilling the 1/4” hole out to 3/8”. And once you get to the bottom of a 1/4” x 1 1/2” hole with a 3/8” bit, there really isn’t too much more drilling until you’ve got a 2 1/4” deep hole for a stainless 5-piece. Yeah, it takes a little more effort, but isn’t that what wall climbing is all about? Wouldn’t it be best to just do it right in the first place? Isn’t El Cap worth it?
Any type of wedge/stud bolt is a poor choice for a bolt, in my opinion, mainly because they cannot be pulled for replacement. Of course stainless is better than carbon steel for longevity, but a stainless bolt will still need to be replaced at some point. Another problem with the wedge/stud-type bolt is that it allows the “shortcutter” to short-drill the hole, which then leaves the threaded stud of the bolt sticking out way too far – you (plural) know who you are!!! :) Then you’ve got something to catch on in the event of a fall and something sharp protruding from the rock. Wasn’t there an accident on… maybe the Nose a while back, involving a rope cut over threads on a bolt??? Werner?
The Rawl 5/16” buttonhead is a good bolt, but these days I see it more as a backcountry bolt that is great for on-lead drilling while free climbing (stance, etc.) when you want something more bomber than a 1/4”er but don’t have the stance, etc. for a 3/8”. As you have seen on Bad Seed, the 5/16” buttonhead can be a good option on the FA, but if we are replacing existing bolts, I strongly feel that it should be done right in the first place. Why take an intermediate step in bolt progression out of laziness, especially if it means that the 5/16” hole will be more difficult to drill out during bolt replacement, compared to drilling the original 1/4” hole out to 3/8”? Isn’t El Cap worth it?
Bridge? Isn’t that what my grandmother used to play? When are you going to come up to Tuolumne for some free climbing on some of the best rock on the planet? :) Cheers, ya crazy crab-lover…
“And, that zinc plated bolt/stainless hanger combo is SUPER common. Anyone?”
That’s what I have been installing on my new routes in Tuolumne over the last few years – 3/8” x 1 7/8” 4-piece or x 2 1/4” 5-piece carbon steel bolts with stainless Metolius hangers, as well as a few stainless Petzl hangers. I’d use stainless 5-piece bolts if the cost wasn’t so outrageous, and plated hangers if nice ones were more readily available (don’t like the Fixe hangers too much). As Greg and I have mentioned before, one significant advantage to the 1 7/8” length 4-piece bolts (3/8”) is that there is no blue plastic sleeve on the bolt, which means that the metal sleeve projects out of the hole slightly and is easier to remove upon replacement to stainless. Only a slight amount of drilling is required to deepen a hole to 2 1/ 4” but often I just over-drill the 1 7/8” hole anyways without intending to… darn HSS drill bits…
From what I’ve seen of existing carbon steel 5-piece bolts in Tuolumne and greater Yosemite, the bolt itself may be a little (or a lot) rusty while the exposed hex-head of the bolt and stainless hanger appear clean. Greg and others, is this just a matter of the carbon (plated) steel corroding or is there a significant acceleration of bolt corrosion due to the galvanic interaction between bolt and hanger?
Mucci, not sure which rivets you refer to… 1/4” Zamac (Z-mac) nail-ins or the more recent standard, 5/16” coarse-thread, grade-5, carbon steel machine bolts?
“Z-macs”
http://www.powers.com/product_02826.html
“This anchor is not recommended for applications overhead.”
Heh...
5/16” machine bolts – I prefer the second one from the bottom, with the end chopped off to the desired length with bolt cutters. “Adjust” threaded end per rock type/hardness on a grinder. Although I have found in primitive testing in granite that well-placed machine bolt rivets can be much stronger (both in shear and in tension) than 1/4” x 1 1/2” buttonheads, machine bolt rivets are difficult to pull cleanly for eventual replacement. For modern rivets in solid granite on wall routes, I still recommend 1/4” x 1 1/2” split-shaft buttonheads (Rawl Drive bolt) with two 5/16” flat washers. 1/4” buttonheads can usually be pulled (when not too old) and the hole reused with another 1/4” buttonhead.
Mike. knows the gig on the two washers… I’ve typed enough for now…
Pardon my rambling and thread drift to other diameters than 5/16” and cheers to all of you fellow bolt-heads!!!………
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Greg Barnes
climber
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May 12, 2010 - 03:29am PT
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From what I’ve seen of existing carbon steel 5-piece bolts in Tuolumne and greater Yosemite, the bolt itself may be a little (or a lot) rusty while the exposed hex-head of the bolt and stainless hanger appear clean. Greg and others, is this just a matter of the carbon (plated) steel corroding or is there a significant acceleration of bolt corrosion due to the galvanic interaction between bolt and hanger?
Just plain rust, not galvanic corrosion. For most cases in drier climates like we are talking about, it would make no difference to have plated vs. stainless hanger - seeping limestone being the big exception. There's a chance that water streaks might have electrolytes collecting from soil runoff, moss, lichen, etc, and you could see it on granite, but it's not likely unless you go to wetter climates.
You get rusting in the hole with any rock type that is not porous - water simply pools in the hole (even on vertical/slightly overhung rock) and you get more rust. I've seen really significant rusting (threads on 5-pieces beginning to disintegrate) at Owens for 10-year old bolts - and then other bolts nearby only had minor rust. For soft sandstone and other porous rock, the water evaporates out through the rock and you don't get as much rusting. Silicone used on the bolt top accelerates rusting in the hole by trapping water in the hole.
And Pete - the extra bit binding you would get expanding a 1/4" hole to 5/16" instead of 3/8" would negate the advantage of the smaller bolt. You'd have the 3/8" in the rock in the same time and your wrist wouldn't be so sore from trying to free the 5/16" bit which would constantly get stuck.
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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May 12, 2010 - 03:37am PT
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Thanks, Greg.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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May 12, 2010 - 03:45am PT
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Mineralz-
No the ones I saw on SQ looked like a 3/8 buttonhead (round and large)
Great info here as usual, got the heavy hitters of bolting chiming in.
Why the 2 washers? I understand the application with rivet/nut hanger but if using a 1" button and 1 washer, you could in theory just place a arrow under the washer when placing the bolt. That way there is a sufficient space between rock/washer to prevent any issues.
any thoughts? Just thought with a smaller bolt, I would want to maximize the depth.
Thanks for the information, Very solid!
Mucci
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