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MisterE
Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
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Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2010 - 01:33am PT
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In retrospect, one has to wonder:
These guys don't really give a sh1t, do they? If they couldn't take the time to make sure Vadez didn't happen again on any level from production to transport to refinery, then who's to really say AT THIS POINT that this will not continue? Without assurance of protection against these crimes against nature?
Sadly, most of us will never feel the direct consequences of these events...this time...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Well if this one goes like the Valdez spill did it will mean lots of new Benzes and summer homes for a lot of lawyers and a pauper's grave for a lot of fishermen.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Coastal Climber- I get the quote, the point of it. Worthy to contemplate and 11th Hour is a good documentary.
Here's a silver lining to this catastophe, I mean for those who are looking for one: all the (fail-safe) safety systems (that failed) were from an oil rig and not a nuclear reactor.
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Dave
Mountain climber
the ANTI-fresno
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HS81 -- I saw one report that one of the primary safety devices for this sort of incident - a remote shutoff valve of some sort - was not installed by RIG. You know if this is true or heard the same thing?
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tooth
Trad climber
The Best Place On Earth
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I heard they tried for two days to activate the remote shut-off. It wasn't working.
Seems like drilling/collecting oil should be a lot less costly now that it is pouring out of the water on it's own. Those fishermen should be figuring out how to collect it and sell it to refineries.
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Argon
climber
North Bay, CA
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The WSJ is reporting that it may be leaking at a rate of up to 25,000 barrels per day. That's about 1 million gallons - or an Exxon Valdez every 12 days. If it takes 90 days to cap, it could be like 8 Exxon Valdez's. I hope Dick Cheney sold his Haliburton stock. Maybe he should reconvene his secret oil industy group.
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hb81
climber
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I heard they tried for two days to activate the remote shut-off. It wasn't working.
From what I've heard and read so far thats true.
And just now I came across this:
http://www.kansascity.com/2010/04/30/1914996/us-report-found-failure-of-offshore.html
"Citing a Minerals Management Service report, Sen. Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., said there were 117 failures of blowout preventers during a two-year period in the late 1990s on the outer continental shelf of the United States."
I mean, WTF? 117 failures in two years?? In a device that has a crucial safety function, thats just beyond belief.
I'm sure nobody would go climbing anymore if 117 ropes ripped within two years or 117 rappel bolts broke off.
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apogee
climber
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"That's about 1 million gallons - or an Exxon Valdez every 12 days. If it takes 90 days to cap, it could be like 8 Exxon Valdez's."
Exxon Valdez Spill
The Exxon Valdez oil spill occurred in Prince William Sound, Alaska, on March 24, 1989, when the Exxon Valdez, an oil tanker bound for Long Beach, California, hit Prince William Sound's Bligh Reef and spilled an estimated minimum 10.8 million US gallons (40.9 million litres) of crude oil....the oil eventually covered 1,300 square miles (3,400 km2) of ocean.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exxon_Valdez_oil_spill
Gulf Spill
The new leak estimate is about 5,000 barrels (42 gallons = 1 barrel) a day, according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. (BP's) Suttles told ABC News he still believes it to be between 1,000 barrels -- the company's original estimate -- and 5,000.
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Eco/bp-oil-spill-national-significance-obama-administration/story?id=10509844
Exxon Valdez: 10.8 million gallons
Gulf Spill: (5,000 barrels x 42 gallons) x 8 days = 1,680,000 (1.7 million) gallons (to date)
Edit:
Government officials said the blown-out well 40 miles offshore is spewing five times as much oil into the water as originally estimated — about 5,000 barrels, or 200,000 gallons, a day.
At that rate, the spill could easily eclipse the worst oil spill in U.S. history — the 11 million gallons that leaked from the grounded tanker Exxon Valdez in Alaska's Prince William Sound in 1989 — in the three months it could take to drill a relief well and plug the gushing well 5,000 feet underwater on the sea floor.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100429/ap_on_bi_ge/us_louisiana_oil_rig_explosion
(Check out the interactive map on this link, showing the day-by-day spread of the spill.)
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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The disaster is terrible but every single one of us here is equally to blame. We assume oil companies cut corners. We know that safety regulation is often lax. We still use and demand cheap oil. If you are truly outraged then stop using so much oil.
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apogee
climber
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Besides the obvious environmental and economic tragedies, I'm disappointed at the timing of this disaster. We do need to continue to find alternative sources of energy that are less impactful, but the reality is that, even with a strong commitment, we will require oil to run the country in the interim.
If that's the case, we should be taking full responsibility for our use, which means not just the upside benefits of (supposed) reduced costs and less dependence on foreign sources, but the downside aspects of disasters like this. Right now, we defer the downside impacts to other countries.
I reluctantly supported Obama's domestic drilling decision of a few weeks ago primarily for this reason. Unfortunately, as this disaster continues to widen and horrify the country, the willingness for domestic drilling will evaporate, and we'll just continue to do what we have been- deferring the downside to other parts of the world.
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hb81
climber
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Finding alternative energy sources (for transportation) is just part of the problem though. What many people forget or simply do not know is that about 20-25% of the total production of refined oil products goes into non-energy use.
Plastics, rubbers, medicine, cosmetics, paint, fertilizer, herbicides, lubricants, parrafin waxes, tarmac... all these things use some refined oil products in their production and replacing these components wont be easy.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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Damn straight.
We're caught in a trap. All of us, at all levels of being.
On the one hand, everyone (at least everyone in the know) knows we should conserve these nonrenewables for the one of a kind treasure they are... yet on the other hand no entity (from individual to corp to nation) wants to give an inch, an economic inch, to any other (and thus suffer contraction while competitors take advantage and grow).
So cheap abundant fossil fuels will continue to be consumed till they are no longer "cheap abundant" but expensive and hard-to-get.
The messiness of life. How will it work out? I must stay tuned. Only Hypercrates (the personification of destiny) knows. Be kind, Great Hypercrates!
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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"Finding alternative energy sources (for transportation) is just part of the problem though. What many people forget or simply do not know is that about 20-25% of the total production of refined oil products goes into non-energy use."
Which is fine. There's nothing inherently wrong with oil. It's the sheer volume that we use that is the problem.
Start carpooling more. Make less trips. Plan ahead. Ride your bike. I know that I don't do nearly enough of these things.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
Full Silos of Iowa
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HDDJ, HB81-
I agree with your points.
But we don't live in a noncompetitive (perfect) world in which game theory doesn't apply. So if you do these things (and contract) and others don't, you end up chumped, the loser, and your girl if she's like most will leave you (in the interest of her offspring) and run off with a winner (set on growth and profiteering).
What is your response to this argument?
EDIT Actually, screw the argument. As the argument reflects reality. Better question: What is your response to this reality.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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HCFS said - But we don't live in a noncompetitive (perfect) world in which game theory doesn't apply. So if you do these things (and contract) and others don't, you end up chumped, the loser, and your girl if she's like most will leave you (in the interest of her offspring) and run off with a winner (set on growth and profiteering).
You make it cool to use less. This is already happening. Look at how many companies market themselves as green these days. We dreamed of this back in the early 90's. Problems are made by individual people making small, individual choices that add up to big problems. Solutions are made the same way. We need to keep moving out of a paradigm of conspicuous consumption and into one of conspicuous conservation.
Also, I'm not talking about Grand Theories. I'm talking sheer pragmatism. Stop being theoretical and start being practical. "But girls won't like me" is a pretty weak argument for not carpooling.
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Chief
climber
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We live in the age of privatization of profit and the socialization of loss.
The public will pay for this mess, that's the law now.
WTF bailed out the bankers and automakers?
Where was the emergency response plan for this event?
There wasn't one, it was avoided through deregulation in the name of "free market economy", the very one right wing, neoconservative capitalists keeps recommending.
What will not happen in this situation is humans admitting their culpability and questioning hallowed paradigms like the ones you see on CMT with god fearing rednecks enjoying motorsports and wrapping up military bullying in the Stars and Stripes and apple pie.
The real enemy is the ignorant hordes shopping on price point at Walmart and voting on the "economy". The citizens of our "democracies" will blame Obama, Harper and the politicians for not doing the job for people they won't do for themselves.
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apogee
climber
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(thread drift- apologies)
"The Cape Wind project has been a big issue here for a few years, it was ok'd by the feds last week."
http://www.boston.com/lifestyle/green/greenblog/2010/04/cape_wind_decision_expected_to.html
I was wondering what the outcome was gonna be for that one. Good to see that there are still some places where big, old money isn't winning out over the needs of the greater good. Of course, the opposition's lawsuit is sure to at least slow things down a bit.
The Cape Wind Farm was the penultimate example of NIMBY-ism, and perhaps it will create the right precedent for future efforts. I understand and support the concerns around environmental and aesthetic impacts of windfarms and oil derricks, but those are the realities of our power needs, and there is far to great a tendency to try to push them off to someone or somewhere else.
Make windfarms and oil platforms good and visible: it's about time people became truly aware of where their energy is really coming from, and why conserving it is really important.
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hb81
climber
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This is getting away from the oil spill a bit, but since we're talking global problems right now...
I believe that most problems we face right now are due to one reason:
Overpopulation. Just look at the numbers: in 1999 there were about 6 billion people on earth. Now its 6.8 billion. 800 million additional people in 10 years! Like another continent just appeared out of nowhere, but without any resources.
Prediction for 2050 is close to 9 billion. Just try to get your head around these numbers.
And all these people will compete for finite resources, boy is it gonna get really ugly or what?
We really need some grand scale solutions ASAP. Either we find a way to sustain on the resources that earth provides us or we better get to Mars fast and make it liveable somehow. Since I somehow doubt that the latter is gonna happen anytime soon, we should all focus on the first part for now.
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