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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Apr 11, 2010 - 12:33pm PT
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Not on the fringe Coz. It is respect for the law. Great Americans throughout history his given their life for the law to safe guard everyone from tyranny. When we lose respect for the law, when we play fast and loose with it, and when we raise a leader above the law, then we are no better then the barbarians. Once we are no better then the barbarians, then who keeps on eye on us?
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Apr 11, 2010 - 12:56pm PT
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You are comparing an enemy combatant on foreign soil, in war time to a US citizen.
we are at war with Yemen??? Do you have ANY boundaries to this war?
Currently America has declared war on drugs. Should all drug users be subject to the same rules you apply to the war on terrorism?
We have dropped in the the rabbit hole when we declared war on terrorism. It is too loose of a definition and leaves room for all sorts of abuses.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Apr 11, 2010 - 01:02pm PT
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We weren't at war with France, yet we invaded Normandy in 1944.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 11, 2010 - 01:25pm PT
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Seems like the conservatives are saying they've seen some kind of proof this guy has done actual violence. Nobody, even the assassins, are saying that. They do say he is a member of Al Queda, but offer no proof.
Haven't we seen the Gov be wrong often enough to doubt that?
Regarding the drones in Pakistan. Note that Pakistan is a nuclear country and that it's people resent us bombing their sovereign land. The possibility they will overthrown our favored leaders and the blowback will bring us more harm is very real. That happened to us when our Shah fell in Iran and it's happening right now in kyrgyzstan as our autocrat despot falls and the people lean to Russia.
Remember, Saddam was our dude as well.
We make more and more enemies on our path to stamp out the terrorist boogyman. Why is there a terrorist boogyman in the first place. Not because Islam wants to take over America by force but because they are sick of us ruling them through our support of Kings and corrupt dictators abroad.
Remember, this cleric has more than a passport, He was born in New Mexico. Read up on the case.
Even if guilty, the precedent that any American citizen can be killed with no due process is subject to extreme abuse. To fear that is not fringe at all. Obama criticized Bush for warrant less wiretapping of Citizens and now wants to just kill them! There's nothing in this policy to keep them from doing so in the United States
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 11, 2010 - 01:28pm PT
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from
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/joseph-huffhannon/blowback-in-kyrgyzstan_b_531224.html
As the Guardian reported on Thursday, interim opposition spokesperson and former Kyrgyz ambassador to the United States, Roza Otunbayeva, said of the outgoing president: "His business is finished in Kyrgyzstan ... in essence people were simply fed up with the previous regime, and with its repressive, tyrannical and abusive behaviour. They want to build democracy here."
It is a curious picture -- a nation literally at the crossroads of the US "democratisation" project in Afghanistan violently erupting to eject a government that had benefited handsomely from US aid and lucrative insider contracts -- despite a drumbeat of reports over the last few years of the ruling party's increasingly anti-democratic nature. But the American government's laissez-faire attitude towards the human rights situation in Kyrgyzstan isn't very hard to fathom. The strategic location of the country is a lynchpin in the US armed forces' movement of troops and supplies in and out of Afghanistan, via the massive American military air base just outside of the capital city of Bishkek. In fact when the government threatened to cancel the lease to the base last summer, the Obama administration wooed the president with a private letter, and eventually agreed to triple rent payments on the lease. In the meantime most people in Kyrgyzstan saw little benefit from this "strategic relationship."
"The human rights situation has deteriorated in the last two to three years, and especially in the last six months," Dr Andrea Berg tells me, a Berlin-based Central Asia researcher with Human Rights Watch. "There have been physical attacks and murders of journalists, closures of newspapers, trials against high-ranking opposition members. I think the last straw was the socio-economic problems, increase of the prices for energy, and on cell phone fees. The US has criticised certain developments in Kyrgyzstan, but in general the main concern was about stability. Human rights came second."
Realpolitik can and often does have unintended consequences; the bloody revolt in Kyrgyzstan is just the latest example. Interestingly the protests, in which at least 70 were shot dead by security forces before the opposition stormed the parliament and wrested power, bear an uncanny resemblance to another popular revolt of the past decade half a world away. In 2003 the US-supported government of Bolivia was toppled amid state repression and violence after long simmering anger over resource nationalisations and utility hikes in the desperately poor Andean nation. That bloody episode led to the election of the first indigenous president in the hemisphere, Evo Morales, and a government decidedly at odds with US geopolitical interests in Latin America. The deposed president, Gonzalo Sánchez de Lozada, now lives in exile in the United States -- where he has been charged in two civil suits for crimes against humanity and extrajudicial killings during the protests that precipitated his resignation.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 11, 2010 - 02:16pm PT
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Folks should note that it takes a fair amount on self-honesty and courage to criticize the guy you voted for and to oppose his policies.
If conservatives had held Bush's feet to the fire over his abuses, you might have more seats in congress now.
Corrupt policies and evil are not instituted initially by targeting sympathetic individuals and groups, but are later used against them.
These same arguments against "terrorist rights" can easily be morphed into arguments against due process for Murders, then rapist (who wants to defend those guys?) and finally wind up being used in the war against drugs. (and many outside of california hardly recognize a difference between weed and meth) The slippery slope is here in spades.
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Ben Franklin
Peace
Karl
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Prezwoodz
climber
Anchorage
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Apr 11, 2010 - 02:22pm PT
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I am pretty sure President Obama is just sitting there saying all these people he would like to kill and all the bills he would like to shoot down. Its unfortunate that one man has to take so much pressure for an entire country. Since we are all citizens of this country we are generally under Obamas Administration in that sense were all to blame for every little blame throwing thing that someone wants to toss around.
Why didn't you post this in a thread about the war itself? It WW2? Or any other war we specifically went to someone else's country to kill them, control them. This idea of America is sickening. Don't think your all high an mighty because you don't like the word assassination, and you don't think we should target our own. That lessens the importance of the rest of humanity.
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Apr 11, 2010 - 02:22pm PT
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Karl,
I think the problem is that a president, no matter who it is in office at the time, really is not the one calling the shots.
It's not really "his policy." It's the puppet masters who got him elected, whoever they may be.
Obama is a clown and a tool. So was Bush, Clinton, Bush Sr., Reagan and many others.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:09pm PT
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Agreed Mason
I'm hoping Obama will step up if things get dark but sadly, he's laying the groundwork for more authoritarian control (something I thought conservatives feared)
Having taught High School social studies for a short time, I'm sad to note that many of us don't really know how the constitution protects our freedoms nor even what it stipulates.
We just follow the herd and if media or government lapels something as "terrorist" then anything goes.
Political protest and terrorist can look pretty close in the eyes of a threatened government. Note the guys with guns protesting Obama. Take the tea party movement a few steps further (and they could do it easy if actually provoked by higher taxes instead of fear of taxes) and we'd have some more terrorists to oppress.
Peace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 11, 2010 - 03:38pm PT
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Skip, it was pretty rare for them to disagree with Bush but I did praise them when they did.
Problem is, the search function here is a blunt tool and this place wastes enough of my time
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:15pm PT
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Arianna Huffington has a perspective from outside the American Political process, and that is not a bad thing.
It is if she's naive, stupid, and a dyed-in-the-wool liberal IMO.
If the Yemeni gov't grants us persmission to fire, we can take this rat-f*#ker out w/o a declaration of war. We already struck in Yemen once recently, remember?
Hey does this mean Adam 'al-Ameriki' Gadahn can be drone-zapped too? Sweet. That guy is a real piece of work...
this dude;
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/gadahn_a.htm
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:18pm PT
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Karl posted this good video. If you haven't watched it you should.
Cragman,
If given the chance, I'd pull the trigger.
How can you say this from a Christian perspective? Are we in the Old Testament dispensation now of "An Eye for an Eye, and a Tooth for a Tooth?" Jesus closed the door on that dispensation. He is the eternal Lamb of GOD, the eternal sacrifice for sin. There is forgiveness for everyone now. No more blood is required for the atonement of sin, only Jesus's.
We do not know his guilt. I'm willing to give him a fair trial.
Would Jesus stone or pull the trigger on this Muslim Cleric who is an American citizen, or any World Citizen for that matter?
Does Jesus teach/preach Capital Punishment? NO HE DID NOT, NOR DOES HE.
Yes, at the final bitter end there is a Final Judgement. But remember, that is GOD in the judgement seat and not you or me, thankfully. Only GOD knows the heart of man.
We are not to be vengeful or use vengence.
Vengence is GOD's only. Not ours.
Edit:
Here is a great resource . . .
http://www.bible-knowledge.com/old-testament-vs-new-testament/
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:22pm PT
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Would Jesus stone or pull the trigger on this Muslim Cleric who is an American citizen, or any World Citizen for that matter?
Probably not. He is immortal and without sin. We are neither and need to do our best to counter evil as it walks the earth. Especially when it targets the innocent.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:39pm PT
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It is called a fair trail, and then if guilty, prison.
We have a Commandment not to Kill.
That is why all War is a massive fraud. Yes, we have a right to protect ourselves if attacked, for self-defense purposes only, and to fight to help defend our allies. We do not have a right to wage War for Aggression, Resources, Power, or Profit. It seems America has turned War into business, and we have invented a "War of Terror" for perpetual business.
Afghanistan and Iraq were unnecessary fraudulent Wars built on lies.
Watch:
Why We Fight
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=9219858826421983682
All War waged by mankind is WRONG.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Apr 11, 2010 - 04:45pm PT
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We have a Commandment not to Kill.
Nope. It's thou shalt not murder. Look up the original translation.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 11, 2010 - 05:04pm PT
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Some people just need killin'
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Apr 11, 2010 - 05:08pm PT
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Bluering,
You are splitting hairs.
Thou Shall not Murder.
So, you are then saying assassinating another human being without a fair trial, just proclaiming their guilt with a wave of the hand and then shooting them is not murder?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder
Waging aggressive War by mankind for land, resources, power, profit etc. is murder on a massive grandscale.
The only time killing (we are talking about mankind doing this to mankind) is not murder, is when you do so for self-defense.
Edit:
Obviously killing someone truly accidently when you never intended to do so is defined differently.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Apr 11, 2010 - 05:35pm PT
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So, you are then saying assassinating another human being without a fair trial, just proclaiming their guilt with a wave of the hand and then shooting them is not murder?
Some people don't need a trial, they've publicly stated their treason and will to commit murder.
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Apr 11, 2010 - 05:43pm PT
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I'm hoping Obama will step up if things get dark but sadly, he's laying the groundwork for more authoritarian control (something I thought conservatives feared)
Having taught High School social studies for a short time, I'm sad to note that many of us don't really know how the constitution protects our freedoms nor even what it stipulates.
We just follow the herd and if media or government lapels something as "terrorist" then anything goes.
Political protest and terrorist can look pretty close in the eyes of a threatened government. Note the guys with guns protesting Obama. Take the tea party movement a few steps further (and they could do it easy if actually provoked by higher taxes instead of fear of taxes) and we'd have some more terrorists to oppress.
Hey Karl,
Yea it would be really cool if Obama were to use his power for good.
A while back I really thought deeply about what type of power Obama could wield if he wanted to. Power that not only derived from his position as the leader of the free world, but the very fact that he is the FIRST black president EVER elected in this country. He has such power to sway the minorities of this country who have been oppressed, but could now find some sense of unity. But, I guess he fears for himself and his family, because the neo-con power center, the ones who got him into office, could easily remove him from that office. The halls of government/corporatocracy have greater power than that of the president.
However, that power is useless if the people do not supply it. And that's where Obama could be a true leader for change.
The people. He got the people behind him the first time. But, he's been unable to parlay that support into something greater. I'm sure he'd be scared to, for one.
The constitution is being destroyed by corporate powers interested in securing a consistent income and support for their way of life by and on the backs of cheap labor in China, South America, Haiti, Central America and elsewhere. I think we're moving into a dark ages where people are afraid to stand up against the government and think freely.
I am going to have to re-read Fahrenheit 451, New World Order and Brave New World. I think they apply to this day and age.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Apr 11, 2010 - 10:15pm PT
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Changed my mind. Karl, that Oberman video was great. It says that the guy claims he is not guilty as charged and he refutes the charges.
I totally rescind what I said above- I was wrong. Our government has no business murdering an American citizen, especially one claiming innocence, in cold blood. It goes against everything this country has stood for since it's founding. Who the hell is Obama to start issuing Fatwas to murder people like Ayatollah Khomeini use to do. If they can do it to him, they can do it to you or your loved ones.
Oberman vid again, for those who missed it. Thanks for helping me think this through Karl and Rox.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDdWu6SmN3Y
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