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LccMonkey
Trad climber
utah
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I wonder how much they want for it?
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Dick Danger
Trad climber
Lakewood, Colorado
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"I wonder how much they want for it?"
Yeah, me too. Someone post-up if details are known.
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Mimi
climber
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Aliens. A great movie. Even better pro.
All the best to you, Nadia.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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paganmonkeyboy...
could we publicly buy it ? there's enough gearheads that love aliens - could we organize and hire someone to run it and do it that way ?
Simple answer, "Yes." Perhaps, if there really is the interest in being investors then an off-line discussion could/should occur.
LccMonkey
I wonder how much they want for it?
Dick Danger
Yeah, me too. Someone post-up if details are known.
Not to be too rude, but that discussion should NEVER occur here on a public forum! We are talking about someone's business. Something that means a lot to them and that privacy must be respected. Anyone interested in being considered as part of the business discussions process can contact Nadia and sign the proper paperwork.
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duncan
climber
London, UK
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DMM have no equivalent in their current range and must be thinking of producing a small cam. They recognise Aliens as the market leader. With their record of taking out-of-patent cam designs and trying to improve them, a Welsh Alien (an Englishman?) may be a possibility.
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scarcollector
climber
CO
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Ihateplastic your discretion is appreciated, we'll try not to violate any trust or confidentiality with specifics in this forum.
Since it's not a publicly traded company and is probably not going to be going through an IPO anytime soon, it cannot be "publicly" bought; however it could be financed through a private placement memorandum under Regulation D of the Securities Act of 1933.
I live just over the border in Colorado, and I've got some experience in putting deals together for manufacturing operations like this. I would be glad to help with advice on valuation, financing, operations management, etc.
-Jim
tarsier AT frii.com
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dustonian
climber
RRG
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someone buy this company. I can't climb el cap without hybrids!!
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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scarcollector,,, I agree
Since it's not a publicly traded company and is probably not going to be going through an IPO anytime soon, it cannot be "publicly" bought; however it could be financed through a private placement memorandum under Regulation D of the Securities Act of 1933.
My comment was generic, in that, sure people can "get together and buy/start/run a company." Beyond that, there are many, many fine details that need to be examined/discussed. Clearly you have a much better handle on this than I do! Perhaps if things come to pass...
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Nothing sticks like Aliens. And my old ones need replacing, I hope someone keeps them alive.
I understand a price can't be posted but it would probably attract more potential buyers if a ballpark figure or range is posted. e.g. mid 6 figures?
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scarcollector
climber
CO
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Ihateplastic - you're right that essentially regular joe climbers could raise the money and "buy in." Much of the SEC regulation on this concerns how the stock could be advertised for sale, but if the money (or debt capacity) is there then a deal can be worked out.
Regarding price: with a company in a "distressed" situation the price and terms of a deal are often flexible. I doubt that the owners say "we want to get $xxx,xxx and we won't take a penny less because that's what the Net Present Value calculation says it's worth." It's often more like: "buy the assets for their depreciated cost, give us an equity share, and we'll finance the rest of the sale as debt" or something like that. My point is that there is often a lot of room for creative negotiation.
I should point out that I know nothing about this company or situation other than their little yellow ones are the sh#t on The Nose and that offsets have saved my bacon a few times.
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jsb
Trad climber
Bay area
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Is there anywhere to buy alien cams right now?
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slevin
Trad climber
New York, NY
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I have taken some serious whippers on small Aliens and walked away. I love the product and would love to get more, no matter what some people on the net said about the quality. So, assuming the right management and marketing, I could see this being a profitable investment project for someone. Especially considering that this is an established company with an sizable market share.
My concerns would mostly run along the following lines:
(a) would all of the technical personnel be retained by the company once it's taken over?
(b) how difficult would it be to find proper management for a business like that?
(c) could quality assurance concerns be addressed in a definitive manner and integrated into the marketing strategy?
Regarding price: with a company in a "distressed" situation the price and terms of a deal are often flexible. Well, distressed nature of the company in this case is purely perceptional and psychological. For someone who is a friend (which is the case) I guess the negotiations should be "creative", but not hardball.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Priviet Slevin...
All excellent points and well-presented.
Poka!
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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Sounds like the owner(s) want out and BD or Trango aren't interested. Best of luck, esp after the exploding cam debacle.
They're probably worth:
$X for the Alien brand name (now tarnished)- maybe a few hundred $k
$(0.1 * X) for the Alien patent - BD also makes a small cam now.
$Y plant/facilities
-$Z for any debt
-$W for outstanding liabilities from previous manufacturing defects (serious liability to name/brand). Can a previously made, defective cam out in the wild sink the new owner?
Fill in the blanks and that's about it. It's %100 clear that's what's left of existing management is walking away, as may other employees. You can't move the business without losing every employee. The existing cash flow is shaky at best - buyers have no guarantee on quality. Their market share is likely in decline - first the explode-a-cam, then word of a new owner/manufacturer. Its a competitive business with an 800lb gorilla (BD) to contend with.
EDIT: It's too bad to see a family type business go. I love my aliens. But as far as buying this - there's just aren't a lot of companies who could successfully do it.
And I might add that hybrids will fetch a pretty penny next summer. Heh- there's your answer - run off a stock pile now, store them, and keep the price/profit high with limited supply.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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I'm not surprised that BD, Trango etc. are not interested. CCH is worth essentially zero.
Curt
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville
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The last two posts expose the problem with posting this type of information on the internet.
People with little or no business experience spraying about things they do not understand or even have a clue. They do this with no regard for the people this type of abuse may effect.
I would never call some one that would do this a friend.
If CCH sells, it will be a positive experience for the current owners and the goodwill they have provided to so many will be returned.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Any buyer would and should be worried about liability for defective products made before the sale but should also consult a competent attorney to assess that potential liability. It may depend on the way the sale is structured and the issues *may* be manageable.
Just sayin don't make assumptions unless you are knowledgeable about this tricky legal area.
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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...People with little or no business experience spraying about things they do not understand or even have a clue...
Have a look in the mirror, my friend.
Curt
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MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
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"$X for the Alien brand name (now tarnished)- maybe a few hundred $k "
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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Mr_T
Trad climber
The 7th Pin Scar on Serentiy Crack
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This is a for-sale post (see title). You put something up for sale, we're gonna come up with a price. Don't want us to talk price, don't put it up for sale in a public forum.
Thinking it over more, one possible deal that could keep CCH alive would be to structure it so the seller takes some % of profit over a few years, but relinquishes majority control. That would keep the original owner invested in the company financially, and reduce the buy in for a new owner. Though how it's structured liability wise, it's hard to say (ie you take over, get hit next week with a lawsuit for a cam you didn't make). The existing owner wants out (for very much justified personal reasons), and you'd be a co-owner. I just don't seen anyone ponying up the cash for an outright buy out - if you can make/sell a cam, why not just design your own?
Laugh all you want at the few hundred k argument. Unless you can reverse the declining market share, and compete with BD/Trango's R&D efforts, you're faced with negative growth. Eventually you'll stop turning a profit and as the 2nd owner, discover the company worth zero/negative. Oh, and any patents on the Alien will eventually expire/ have expired(?). Once those patents go away, the value of the company really drops (BD/Trango/OP or some new co are free to incorporate the design).
Before you go laughing, consider:
How many aliens are sold in the US each year at wholesale? Best case you'd match a fraction of 2008's sales. You've already lost ground to BD in the past year.
CCH probably sells to REI at %55 retail (based on outdated pro-deal figures from 12 years ago, and this being a specialty market). So you the manufacturer sell at about $30 a unit. Subtract out manufacturing, overhead, and liability insurance costs, and you're making maybe $10-15/unit? Being a new owner, don't think the insurance co is gonna just give you a favorable premium.
The average buyer purchases 10 of these in their lifetime, replacing perhaps 1/ year? Maybe 20,000 customers at best? So you're taking in $200-300k/yr before taxes. Given competition and eroding market share, this will steadily decline over the next 10 years to zero unless you expand/compete against BD (ie $ spent on R&D).
Sure, Aliens are worth $60 a pop, but CCH doesn't deal direct to customers. Adding on retail would involve significant changes to the company business (increased liability coverage as well as running sales, customer svc).
EDIT: For the record, Aliens are great cams. They're a great product. I have a set and love them.
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