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ec
climber
ca
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Mar 25, 2010 - 11:00am PT
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I had this girlfriend that was in the 'psycho science' field always speculating stupid sh*t like that. However, I have another psycho science friend that would disagree with your friend (she used to climb BITD). These guys like to prompt you for your reactions; that's what they do. PWNED
 ec
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JoeSimo
Trad climber
New York
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Mar 25, 2010 - 11:11am PT
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I think like any sport of subject it depends completely on the people involved. I'm sure we can all point to people who climb for perfectly sound reasons and others that do so because they lose the adrenaline high. I know from my own personal experience I climb for love of the outdoors, the physical and mental challenge, the connection to nature and the joy of spending the day with good friends. Even as I now push trad climbing into the 11's and 12's in the Gunks, I do so with nothing but safety in mind. I don't want to be on a run out lead with the adrenaline flowing. I want to be in the moment, calm and inspired by the rock and route I am on.
However, I also know people that climb for reasons I don't get. Most it seems like ego. If I climb a 5.11 they HAVE to do the same route and will hangdog on it for an hour if need be to finish it. The same people also usually seem less concerned about safety than sending the route. The logic of "is taking 20 falls here and scraping myself up worth it?" takes a back seat to simply getting to the top. After they are lowered down I doubt anyone of them could clearly explain why it was so important to get to the top. Most would probably give a nebulous response of "because I wanted to get to the top." Ironically, had they just come down beforehand they could have climbed 2-3 other routes in the same period of time.
Like someone said already climber are not inherently suicidal, it's the individuals climbing that may or may not be.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 25, 2010 - 11:25am PT
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Worst of all, the risk is meaningless - there is no reward for summiting Everest and no fat paycheck at the top of that 5.12 that you solo.
I've not been atop Everest so I'll leave that one alone, but I have never earned a paycheck which meant as much to me as topping out on certain climbs. The reward is worth the risk, and sometimes driven by and amplified by it.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Mar 25, 2010 - 11:32am PT
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but I have never earned a paycheck which meant as much to me as topping out on certain climbs.
Kris just hit paydirt here.
So to speak.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Mar 25, 2010 - 11:40am PT
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I don't believe people get into climbing due to a subliminal thought of suicide. HOWEVER! It would be interesting to see if athletes in general have more suicides, and what athletics they do.
I've seen, in myself, that much like runners high, when I do a long climb or climbing trip, I'll be way up. A few days after, I feel like I'm in a slump and am depressed. Unlike a runner, who will just go out when the weather is total sh#t, we can't do that, and thus endure the depression of not exercising and getting the good endorphins.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Mar 25, 2010 - 11:40am PT
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I would think that the drive to climb and the drive to suicide are the exact opposite.
Climbing is feels good because you have power over your life for a change. You do live on your own personal terms on climb. Your success/failure is your own.
Suicide comes from feeling powerless. You feel like crap for so long and can't seem to find your own way out of it.
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ec
climber
ca
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Mar 25, 2010 - 11:44am PT
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So...us climbers would rather spend all the time, money, effort, tie into a rope, place anchors to avoid falling to our death/injury because we're suicidal. If we are (in general), what your friend is sayin' is we're f*cking stupid because there's faster, cheaper and easier methods to kill one's self. Tell your friend to stop masturbating with their diploma.
ec
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Mar 25, 2010 - 11:49am PT
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Couchmaster, I've seen some of that stuff you climb on. You defintely have suididal tendencies or are somewhat looney. or both, ha!
and you called my Gorge crag choss......wtf,just not right! ;)
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 25, 2010 - 11:50am PT
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Unlike a runner, who will just go out when the weather is total sh#t, we can't do that, and thus endure the depression of not exercising and getting the good endorphins.
You need to read "Mountaineering in Scotland" by William F Murray...
"It's a fine day for a climb!!"
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 25, 2010 - 11:54am PT
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All the responses in to this subject matter are in the area of ....
"I believe"
"I think"
"Maybe this maybe that"
The original came from this: "She, in fact, came up with a theory ..."
This is all just pure mental speculation and guessing.
What a waste of time ........
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ec
climber
ca
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Mar 25, 2010 - 12:03pm PT
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ST is the way I enjoy wasting time, but I never said the things you said I said Werner...
ec LOL
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 25, 2010 - 12:09pm PT
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You're right ec I should have said most of the responses.
I'm now going to commit hairy kary ......
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bluNgoldhornet6
Big Wall climber
Tampa, Fl
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Mar 25, 2010 - 12:16pm PT
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An intresting thing i have noticed is how this community seems to have a common psychological disorder, mostly Depression. Look at JDF's post about him trying to kick antidepressants and see how many responses he had. Not to many who re-posted on that thread, but many people with similar condition.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Mar 25, 2010 - 12:37pm PT
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Hairy Kari
That sounds messy.
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mar 25, 2010 - 12:49pm PT
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What percentage of adult Americans have a prescription for anti-depressants. It would be interesting to compare that with the percentage of supertopians. My null hypothesis would be that they are similar percentages. As climbers, maybe a lower percentage because of physical activity and passion about something in life. But as forum readers and participants, perhaps sharing less of themselves with live people day-to-day. I'm not sure there is an inverse correlation of online/offline social contact any more though.
One thing I thought about that might bridge the gap between "death wish" and "risk tolerant to live life more fully": when we are making the risk/reward calculation involved in climbing, we assess these things subconsciously:
what do we have to lose by doing it
what is the opportunity cost of not doing it
what do we have to gain
what is the probability of failure
We might lower the perceived cost of a loss ("what do we have to lose") at the moments when we are more stressed in life, depressed, etc. At these times, we may also crave an anchor for meaning in life, crave beauty and peace and exhilaration and such good things to lift us from whatever ails us. This would cause the perceived benefit for the same activity to go up. I guess our moods can also affect our perception of success rate... some days it all flows so easily, and some days are high gravity.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Mar 25, 2010 - 12:51pm PT
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I know, it's a touchy subject, so bear with me. My old college friend, a practicing psychiatrist, said recently that "there is evidence that climbers are more prone to suicide then general population". She, in fact, came up with a theory that "rock climbing and mountaineering is a channel for self-destructive behavior for highly driven people".
Once faced with a statement like that I countered that unless there is a JAMA article, it's a crock of sh#t. However, empirically I do feel that there might be some truth to that statement. A lot of smart, highly driven people push themselves pretty hard to do questionable, risky things. We all do it, in some shape or form - free solo really hard routes, red-point R-rated trad climbs, climb avalanche-prone mountains etc. Worst of all, the risk is meaningless - there is no reward for summiting Everest and no fat paycheck at the top of that 5.12 that you solo.
Do you think climbers are more suicide prone then general population? Are we really out there to kill ourselves?
First of all, life is dangerous. No one gets out alive. Should we all just hide out in our closets scared of living because something might accidently happen, and heaven forbide we die? Of course not. What kind of life is that?
Also that doesn't mean we should put a loaded gun up to our head and pull the trigger.
Somewhere between the two extremes is really where most of us live our lives. It is a matter of degrees.
Another way of thinking about it is the fact all of us drive cars. Even granny who is often scared of her own shadow. So let me get this. You mean to tell me we all participate in an activity where we are driving down the road going 60mph just a mere few feet away from another driver who may or may not be paying attention going 60mph in the opposite way. Our combined speeds are 120mph. Man we must all be adrenalin junkies. Even granny who is scared of her own shadow yet continues to drive must be nuts. She must be suicidal. Wow, we are all suicidal and nuts.
No, I don't think so. We understand there is risk in living life. Some people accept more risk, and some people accept less. But make no mistake we are all risk, and adrenalin junkies. We all drive. Even scared to death granny drives (and she is probably one of the most dangerous out there on the road).
To say there are no rewards for risk sports and adventure I would completely dissagree with that statement. We are rewarded in very, very personal ways. We are rewarded spiritually (can't be measured except by the individual alone), and also with bio-chemical cycles. Perhaps many of us really are adrenalin and endorphine junkies. Nature's natural drugs. Hey, we produce it, and some of us crave it more than others and are rewarded when it is released.
I would like to think I'm more rewarded by the spiritual aspects of risks and adventure. I can't help but think GOD enjoys watching his creation, and enjoys seeing man-kind push the envelope physically, intellectually, and even in terms of risk and adventure, and do things that seem miraculous and on a higher plane of excellence and existance. I think it makes GOD smile when we pull it off successfully. Can I prove this? No. But, it is what I think. It is my hypothesis.
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Gary
climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
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Mar 25, 2010 - 12:52pm PT
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Werner:
I'm now going to commit hairy kary ......
Don't take it so serious, Werner. It's only make believe.
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nutjob
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Mar 25, 2010 - 01:02pm PT
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In support of my preceding thoughts... here's a link to the trip report for my stupidest adventure ever:
http://supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=531572
This happened at an emotional low-point in my life, in the final months of a decade of difficult marriage. I was NOT suicidal, but my circumstances affected my judgment of the variables in the risk/reward calculation. I had a great need for something positive in my life, I was less aware of what I had to lose, and I was assembling the pieces of my life to begin anew.
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EdBannister
Mountain climber
CA
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Mar 25, 2010 - 01:04pm PT
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Here we go with the literacy thing again, sorry, forgive me, but... it's harakiri, not the descrption of your last girlfriend in camp 4, or an old baseball announcer.
anyway,
I climbed some with Rob Slater shortly before he went to K2.
He intended to die there.
and, the image of Tobin doing the green Arch, with the cord tied in a hangman's noose around his neck does come to mind... how do you belay that?
or not say it was suicidal?
on the other hand, there is just bold, strong, and confident...
I don't think that is suicidal at all.
If you haven't backed off stuff when conditions were not right,
then you either haven't been out there much, or...
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Redlands
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Mar 25, 2010 - 01:05pm PT
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They may be suicide prone...but not really through the act of climbing. All the climber suicides I know of or have heard of did NOT have climbing as the method.
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