Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2010 - 11:49pm PT
|
But can't you understand that you are asking this man (the priest) to perform a service for you and you aren't paying for it. His regular parishioners come weekly and they support his church.
I understand your point, Lois. But how far do you go? I'm only asking for a "ceremonial preist" to pour water on my kid and baptize him in the name of God. That's like a buck in money. You make it sound like some f*#king calling of the Bishops-type ceremony. It ain't.
I get your point though about how churches raise money to pay for stuff.
|
|
Lissiehoya
climber
|
|
Bluering, are you registered at the parish? I think that's the key, more than going every Sunday, but don't quote me on that. I just recently registered because my roommate told me that when I want to get married, they'll want to know that I'm a registered parishioner somewhere. I do go to Mass most Sundays, but it's not like anyone is taking attendance.
And, as Dirka pointed out, I *am* a Catholic theologian (in training, I've got four more years of the PhD after this).
Oh, and I forget who mentioned the Gospel of Thomas, but it also says that women are only good if they're like a man.
Sincerely,
The Future Mrs. Dirka
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2010 - 12:10am PT
|
I guess being a Catholic is just hard. Sully was gracious enough to give some good tips. We'll see if I'm worthy.
Have a good night guys and gals. God bless ya'll for indulging my dilemma. I appreciate the insights. I do.
Thanks, guys/gals!
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Feb 10, 2010 - 12:18am PT
|
Wonderful weather here today.
Rain all day.
|
|
apogee
climber
|
|
|
Feb 10, 2010 - 12:44am PT
|
"I know it sound selfish, worship on you own terms, but I feel Jesus wanted people to find God, not having the church rammed down their throats."
Sounds pretty damn reasonable to me. Just try to keep that same locus in mind when it comes to the interaction of any religion with government or society.
Sorry, no politi-thread drift intended, blue. Actually, oddly, I find myself agreeing with you.
For the record, the Catholic church has a number of issues of late, to be sure, but their dogma is legend in all of human history. My guess is that it is less that the church has changed, and more that you are seeing things a bit differently these days, for whatever reason.
|
|
MisterE
Social climber
Across Town From Easy Street
|
|
|
Feb 10, 2010 - 12:45am PT
|
Why limit your possibilities?
Ther are many other beliefs, ones that have not crippled freedom and forward thinking for generations.
You should have resolved this stuff years ago, Bluey.. wassup? Getting some middle-aged need for easy redemption?
|
|
JOEY.F
Social climber
sebastopol
|
|
|
Feb 10, 2010 - 12:48am PT
|
"I seek answers. I think I know them, but I want further insight. "
Props to you, Blue.
|
|
Fat Dad
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
|
|
|
Feb 10, 2010 - 01:33am PT
|
bluey,
I think part of the problem may just be the particular pastor or monsignor at that church. While they're supposed to take their orders from the local bishop, etc., lots of time the church will simply reflect the attitude of the head priest.
Here in LA, we have very liberal parishes and we have very conservative ones. I attended a church in Santa Monica that, for example, had an active gay outreach program. The gay parish members even had a bake sale one Sunday to support the program and a couple of guys showed up in biker outfits. Classic. That would never happen at the local parish I now attend in Westchester. The pastor is just way too old school.
Shop around. You might be happier at another parish. If you like the institution, you like the institution. Don't let small minded individuals stand in the way of your faith. Who knows, maybe you didn't choose to be Catholic. Maybe it chose you.
|
|
Brian
climber
California
|
|
|
Feb 10, 2010 - 10:40am PT
|
bluering,
I understand your position insofar as I have real problems with the Church (although, given other posts I suspect we have different disagreements with the the Church). I think that, to some extent, many of us who consider ourselves Catholic are "cafeteria Catholics" (i.e., we take what we want and leave the rest). However, at a certain point that approach become ridiculous, no? I mean, if you (or I for that matter) have so many problems with the Catholic Church, at a certain point we should affiliate ourselves otherwise (perhaps, as someone suggested above, the Orthodox Church). The little bit from the Onion always strikes me as funny, sad, and indicative of the approach of many people.
As others have also mentioned, there is a huge diversity withing the Catholic Church in the US (I work at a Jesuit school and I know priests that are very liberal and priests that are very conservative, those that are very ecumenical and open and those that are less so) so you may yet find a place you feel comfortable.
Finally, not that I think Chris will check this thread, or do anything if he does, but while I keep checking back to this site because of things like Chris's little video of Tommy working on Mescalito, the TR's from climbers and, yes, even the occasional bit of OT wisdom from others, every time I see a comment from Lois (as well as certain others, but Lois' vapid comments are the issue here) I want to swear off this site. I would pay $50 without blinking an eye for the ability to block certain posters from cluttering my browser--not for blocking those with whom I disagree (which includes many people, including bluering on a great many topics) but for use against certain irredeemable conscious or unconscious trolls. Normally I am pretty darn good at simply moving on and ignoring any thread such people post too, but occasionally I'm drawn in and, man, what I wouldn't pay for that "block" button.
Good luck blue.
Brian
|
|
Jingy
Social climber
Nowhere
|
|
|
Feb 10, 2010 - 10:57am PT
|
I guess this is a decision between oppression... and guilt...
that is the question
|
|
rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
|
|
|
Feb 10, 2010 - 11:00am PT
|
blue, just because the church won't accept you doesn't mean that God won't accept you. And if a bunch of peons for the church won't baptize, that doesn't mean that God would reject him. Stay away from the petty games that people play and you will be better off. Wanting the acceptance of people who are will not accept you is pointless and God doesn't give a crap about any of that.
Dave
|
|
happiegrrrl
Trad climber
New York, NY
|
|
|
Feb 10, 2010 - 11:27am PT
|
Like Bluering, our family had grown up in this church, attended masses regularly, put in to the collection basket. One of my brothers was even an alter boy.
We grew up and some moved away from the home town. In fact, my father moved the family from lower Wisconsin to the Upper Pennisula in 1980, when I was 18.
The sister I mention was 14 at that time. She met her husband in the UP and, about 6 years later, when she married, she moved to her husband's area, near Detroit.
When the baby came, his family didn't really care so much about a baptism, so when the decision as to where the sacrament should occur(along with one side of family traveling if they desired to attend), my sister thought our home church was the one to go to. especially since grandmother, aunts and several cousins were still members.
Imagine her shock upon getting the *good news* as Bluering described above. A double whammy, because her husband wasn't a member of the church and she was....lapsed.
In order to get this done, she and her husband had to go to a Catholic church in MI, take classes, and upon passing muster, have the pastor send a letter saying they were good to go as Catholics, and that now they would baptize the kid.
I wonder if (not that I would wish this on anyone) a person had this happen to them and the child passed away before the baptism. Would the parents prevail in a lawsuit accusing the Church of causing their baby to spend eternity in Purgatory?
At that time I thought it was about the money as LEB suggested. That's certainly understandable. My sister asked if that was the problem and what amount would cover the costs and of course she would also donate to the church. That was NOT the issue, the priest declared, though of course he was glad she understood that baptism ceremonies cost money(they do take time and energy - more than a buck fer chrissake, Bluering - don't you tip the old lady organist who would provide services on such a day?)
I think the church might have gotten the word from high(so to speak) not to thin out the herds with all these moved around people who hadn't made any efforts to solidly seat themselves in pews in their new locations....). I think they knew the war the church would be fighting wasn't going to be a matter of having more soldiers, but rather the *right* soldiers.... Bras had been burned, drafts had been dodged - YEARS before this edict of "no" ever crossed the local priest's lips.
What the hell else does the papal inner circle have to DO all day besides philosophize about what the world is coming to, anyway? They probable understood..... Gays were standing up demanding to be counted as humans instead of heathens; women were hucking their husbands if they felt the need, now that they weren't burdened with any number of children whether they'd wanted to have them or not, and now that they were actually getting jobs other than librarian, teacher and nurse(all good callings, of course. But BITD, these were the jobs of spinsters and not the wife of a man).
They saw that these....new...Catholics weren't going to be so willing to accept being thrown out for the divorces they'd gone through. For having the sense to use birth control(my mother, who had a heart attack after the birth of her 8th child and was told by her doctor NO MORE - You will NOT SURVIVE) had to GO TO HER PRIEST and ask to be allowed to use birth control(and word went round the parish as quick as that collection plate on a Sunday full of sinners).
Not all parishes have priests who followed the fold, as some upthread have mentioned. But many have.
|
|
Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
|
|
|
Feb 10, 2010 - 11:54am PT
|
They frown on my divorve a few years ago and DEMAND that I attend church to gain my son's acceptance into the church.
God is much more about your heart than about any church. Find a church where people find Love in their hearts and you are OK. Didn't Jesus say the tree is known by it's fruits.
The graft and hypocrisy in some Catholic churches is deplorable. Sure, they sound all moral deploring divorce but a friend of mine's Dad had his previous marriage annulled by the church so he could marry his current wife of many years in the church.
But what about that previous marriage, which lasted 20 years and under which he had 4 kids! He claimed he married early and didn't know what he was doing, and he gives the church big bucks, so they waived their hands and said the marriage never happened. The four kids were instant bastards!
Cough Cough...Seemed like another word for divorce to me.
Peace
Karl
|
|
survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
|
|
|
Feb 10, 2010 - 12:14pm PT
|
Their churches are very baron.
Baron?? C'mon LEB, I only graduated high school. BARREN!
I don't know why I have such a hard on for spelling, but when people are trying to look like they know what they're talking about....it spoils the look.
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2010 - 12:32pm PT
|
Thanks for the input from all of you.
|
|
dktem
Trad climber
Temecula
|
|
|
Feb 10, 2010 - 02:53pm PT
|
Blue,
There are Catholic priests who practice outside the dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.
In particular, if you are looking for someone to baptize your children or perform other sacraments, I suggest this organization:
http://www.wrmosb.org/
Their leader, Father Robert Dittler performed my wedding ceremony (a full catholic service outside a church) and has baptized all of my children (in our home). He is an ordained Catholic priest and can perform the exact same ceremony you would have in a church. He is in San Francisco, which I believe is not far from you, and will travel just about anywhere.
My wife comes from a traditional Catholic family, but I was raised as a Protestant. I have had similar issues as you (e.g. I could not take communion at my own wedding). At our wedding, her family wanted to see all the Catholic rituals, but it was awkward that I could not participate. We found out about the White Robed Monks, and it was a wonderful alternative for us. (They do not have regular church services, they just do ceremonial stuff like weddings and baptisms.)
Father Robert is an interesting guy -- he is extremely knowledgeable about many world religions, esp. Hinduism and Buddhism, and has traveled extensively in India and Tibet (including the Everest base camp). He is an encyclopedia of religion and philosophy (and will talk your ear off sometimes...)
Good luck,
Dave
|
|
bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 10, 2010 - 04:09pm PT
|
Thanks, Dave!
The monks may be perfect.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Feb 10, 2010 - 07:13pm PT
|
Wes -- "You are going to hell bluey. Just go to church and stop thinking ...."
LOL Hahahaha
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
|
|
|
Feb 10, 2010 - 08:47pm PT
|
dktem-
Thanks for the Benedictine reference. They are just perfect for a lot of people I know!
I'm an admirer of a Benedictine monk named Bede Griffiths who has written interesting books like The Marriage of East and West, based on 30 years experience as a missionary in South India.
I visited his establishment there which is set up like a Hindu ashram. The open air church shows Mary wearing a sari and has a picture of St. Francis next to a chakra chart. Bede himself wore the orange robes of an Indian renunciant, slept on the floor etc. in the Indian style.
You won't find anyone overseas more culturally relevant than the Benedictines so it's great to see they exist that way in the U.S. as well.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
Feb 10, 2010 - 08:51pm PT
|
My mother grew up in a town in Ontario which included a large Orange Protestant population, and a large German Catholic population. Something of a cultural clash. The former, mostly Presbyterians, called the latter "catlickers". The RCs called the others the "proddies". An interesting choice for bluering.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!