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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Great post Natalia and Jstan. I hope that we can turn things around.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Did Osama predict the quiet overthrow of Europe and Eurasia too? I ask Natallia to look closer to home.
Let's look back.
What if the corrupt United States stuck by her thought to stay out of the 'last great war' initiated by a German socialist? Were we war mongers to finally join the fight? Of course, we weren't really a super-power at that stage in history.
But after being attacked we decided to join the fight, yes for our own interests, but also because we didn't want to see Europe and Russia fall to a madman (Osama/Hitler). We would be next if our 'allies' fell.
If you're so stupid as to equate this to military/industrial complex crap, then fine, go on being a theorist. The fact is Hitler was real and he wasn't shy in his intentions. He needed to be stopped. And he was stopped with determination and, yes, a great expenditure of resource.
Those who fail to remember their history are condemned to repeat it.
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John Moosie
climber
Beautiful California
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Hitler was real. Osama was created by us. He is a boogieman to keep us at war forever.
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gonzo chemist
climber
the Twilight Zone of someone else's intentions
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Rokx, I don't usually dig your posts too much (as I think we have a few ideological differences in POV), but that's a good post; and it pretty much summed up what I wanted to say. And I'll save you the trouble of writing that you don't give a flying rat's a$$ what I think (b/c I know you already don't).
Thanks, jstan for posting up a level-headed response after the knee-jerk emotional reactions preceding it.
I think that criticism (and hopefully CONSTRUCTIVE criticism) is essential to a functioning democracy. I've really always seen that as part of the media's duty, as well. But I think that the media is largely shirking it's responsibilities these days and has been for a while now.
Its really bothers me that over the past decade or so, anyone who criticizes the government gets the label "unpatriotic" or "unamerican," etc., as if they openly hate this country. Surely those haters are out there; but I've seen that labeling far too often from the large news outlets to believe it to be anything other than a ploy to simply polarize our populace.
Natallia, how's the sport climbing in Germany? I'm only really familiar with how much sport climbing is in France and Spain. And I have a friend in the Army who is stationed somewhere in Bavaria, about an hour from Munich. He's had nothing but nice things to say about living and traveling in Germany.
-Nick
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edit:
'Those who fail to remember their history are condemned to repeat it.'
Wise words, Bluey. Unfortunately for us, Afghanistan is known as "the graveyard of empires." I'm worried that we're going to learn that lesson the hard way...
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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As for Natallia's reference to India and China consuming more of the natural resources than us, what do you propose?
I'd agree we should be competing for more of the oil reserves. After all, we showed the Arabs where it was nad how to get it out of the ground, shouldn't we be entitled to buy it from them at a reasonable cost?
The Saudi f*#ks gouge us. We should drop an ultimatum on them. Give us a reasonable price or we send in 'Ze Germans' again.
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Nuke'm , then the sand turns to glass and you can see the oil better.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Ask a black man if he has the same ability to walk the white suburbs as a white man. Ask him if he has the same economic power as a white man or the opportunity. Ask the Black man if his educational and social opportunities have yet become equal to a white. We have come a long way, but still are not giving the colored man the equality that we promised.
Last time I checked there's a (racist) Black Caucus in Congress and a black Prez....WTF???? What does it take to satisfy your guilt?
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Ye the US is in decay.
Europe rotted to compost generations ago.
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apogee
climber
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Here's one for ya, TGT:
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survival
Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
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Don't worry Natallia, you're safe in Germany......
The Radical Muslims of GermanyDr. Sami Alabraa
"Jews are the enemy of Allah," declared Ismael Gharaballi during a service in a mosque in Bielefeld, Germany. "This is not only my belief, but also Allah's conviction," the Palestinian imam and Hamas activist declared, waving his Koran in the air. The congregation of about 200 thundered, "Allahu Akbar!"
Then Gharaballi turned to another page in the Koran and read,
"… and kill them [he explained this to mean unbelievers, especially the Jews] wherever you overtake them and expel them from wherever they have expelled you" (Surah 2, verse 191). "What are you waiting for?" he cried. "Allah Himself is telling us kill them. No peace can be made with the Jews."
After the prayers, I approached Gharaballi in the cafeteria of the mosque and asked him if he was serious about what he had preached. "Of course, I am. This is not any book. This is the word of Allah." Then I asked if he would kill a Jew here in Germany. He answered: "Yes, especially those Israelis who are occupying Arab land." I reminded him that this would be murder and for that he would land up behind bars. Ismael retorted angrily: "I don't care. The Koran is our law and constitution and anything else is just rubbish." Referring to Hitler, Ismael told me: "The man was a hero, almost a Muslim. I'm one of his fans."
Gharaballi is not unique in Germany's 3 million-strong Muslim community. Ibrahim el-Zayat, the head of an extremist Munich-based organization called The Islamic Community of Germany, told a meeting of fellow Muslims last month: "It is still premature to strike against the Jews and infidels in this country. However, at the lecture at a community center in Neukoeln, Berlin, which I attended, but where no media reporters were allowed access, he went on to assert: "But sooner or later we will strike against the enemies of Allah and Islam. We have to wait. Many Germans are converting to Islam, especially friends from the NPD [a neo-Nazi party]." When I asked a German reporter to verify this by calling el-Zayat, the latter denied having ever said such a thing.
El-Zayat was born in 1968 in Marburg, Germany, to an Egyptian imam and a German mother. He owns a construction company and receives huge sums of money from the Saudis to build mosques in Germany and in other European countries. He is an aggressive Muslim fundamentalist and has connections to various Islamists and terrorist organizations across the world. He is currently being prosecuted in Germany for supporting radical organizations.
El-Zayat is typical of most Muslim activists in Germany. In their schools and community centers, Muslim organizations incite hatred and violence against Jews and Christians. In public, however, and before the media, they deny preaching violence. El-Zayat, Gharaballi and the majority of radical Islamist imams, and officials of Muslim organizations receive big honorariums from the Saudis.
According to a study by Bielefeld University, over 30% of the Muslims living in Germany are radicalized. They reject the German Constitution and hope to establish Sharia Islamic law.
Many German politicians, in particular in the Green Party, often attribute radicalism among Muslims to social problems and lack of integration in German society. For all these problems they blame the German side. Former foreign minister Joschka Fischer stated, in an interview with German radio station WDR earlier this year that Muslims should be left alone to believe and act the way they please. "Other religions are not more liberal than Islam."
The German Home Minister Wolfgang Schäuble has met with heads of Muslim organizations and Islam experts several times over the last two years. I attended all these meetings. The heads of Muslim umbrella organizations tell the German government that they and their members accept the German Constitution. Back in their communities they preach hatred and violence. In mid-April 2008, the German police raided the properties of a dozen Muslim extremists and arrested nine of them. But this is only the tip of the iceberg. The German media and the public appear to be wary of antagonizing Muslim radicals. Very few media reproduced the Mohammad cartoons published in Denmark and they downplayed the recent anti-Islam Fitna film by Dutch politician Geert Wilders.
Radical Islam inculcates in impressionable young minds verses from the Koran that are incompatible with modern values and human rights, such as inciting hatred towards Jews and Christians. Dalal, a 15-year-old girl who attends a Muslim school in Ulm, was proud to tell me that her teacher told her not to greet non-Muslims. It is haram (forbidden), she said. The radical Muslims also emphasize those passages that discriminate against women and incite violence against those who practice freedom of religion and speech.
Christianity and Judaism also have passages in their holy scripts that are incompatible with human rights. But most Christians and Jews simply ignore these passages, consider them archaic, and instead apply more humane and rational ones. Most Muslims ignore the more liberal passages that do exist in the Koran.
The majority of Muslims in Germany are peaceful people. Radical Muslims are a minority. But this minority dominates. They are in key positions in the community and control mosques and organizations. There is no hate-crime law in Germany. The German government should enact such a law, like the one against Holocaust denial, making it an offense to incite to hatred and the violation of human rights.
FamilySecurityMatters.org Contributing Editor Dr. Sami Alrabaa, an ex-Muslim, is a professor of Sociology and an Arab-Muslim culture specialist. Before moving to Germany he taught at Kuwait University, King Saud University, and Michigan State University. He also contributes to the Jerusalem Post.
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Rankin
climber
North Carolina
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Get 'em Bluey. Wait...what am I saying? In all seriousness, the US may be collectively a bit down in confidence right now, but that won't last for long. The US still has 22% of the world's GDP, by far the wealthiest country in the world. China, at a very distant second, has 12%. I'll take that over some subjective assessment of collective 'energy' or 'feeling' any day of the week. Fairly asinine argument for the most part, Natallia, but a good job getting the right-wingers worked up.
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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'Those who fail to remember their history are condemned to repeat it.'
Then
"After all, we showed the Arabs where it was nad how to get it out of the ground, shouldn't we be entitled to buy it from them at a reasonable cost"
And said without a trace of irony.
The thing is Bluey, its important to actually know the history in the first place.
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Fritz
Trad climber
Hagerman, ID
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I am very impressed with the thoughtful posts in response to Natallia's rather challenging post, (as opposed to the “kneejerk responses.”)
She was just trying (in her German way) to communicate a point, rather than slap us in the face.
You have to remember the end of WWII quote: “Those Germans are either at your throats, or at your feet."
Rokjok, as well as others: understood she was communicating some important information and responded in a calm and intelligent fashion.
I do try to stay out of these “rant & rave” threads, but this one sucked me in.
It is tough on me: being the only member of the “Environmental Progressive Socially-Concerned Anarchist-Libertarian” party.
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Deemed Useless
Social climber
Ca.
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"Those who fail to remember their history are condemned to repeat it." ~Jeremy~
People always use this. Like there hasn't been any good things in history worth repeating. Try again.
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Nat I love you( and will draw some heat for this) We are in the wrong place at the wrong time.Trying to beat the assumed enemies in their hills would be like trying to eliminate the redknecks from NV,ID, MT on our own hills....Knott very likely.
Didn't Peter Matthieson say something along these lines in his "Snow Leopard"?....The arrogance of the US is Nauseating, at best. Bama I voted you in to change this absurd situation but yet.....The Hypocrisy and deaths of young unemployed American's continues......
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Reeotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, AZ
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You are right on Natalia!
And, thank you for sharing a perspective on America that is more in line with how the rest of the world perceives US.
As you can see there is still plenty of ignorance, arrogance, and denial about the role our country is now playing in the world.
Everybody knows our government is bought and paid for by big business. It does not bother most americans though, because they have not been on the loosing end of the equation, YET . . .
. . . or they are too brainwashed to realize that they already are . . .
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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And said without a trace of irony. The thing is Bluey, its important to actually know the history in the first place.
Elaborate.
Rokjok, as well as others: understood she was communicating some important information and responded in a calm and intelligent fashion.
Can you people make a f*#king coherent point??? Why all this talk around making an actual point. Make a point and discuss it. You people talk in circles and make no real point!
F*#k!
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pc
climber
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TGT said..."Europe went to compost many years ago..."
IMO compost is a good thing. Nice healthy things grow from compost and shitty old things are made usable again.
We may be in a composting/depression/recession cycle right now. There's a lot that needs to be regenerated in the US. May be really painful for a while but very likely the only way we'll get better.
$.02 worth of cup of compost half full,
pc
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mark miller
Social climber
Reno
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Bluering it's Friday Knight....We are doing the best we can at making an actual point or ...whatever it's a little bluery.
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