Climb Ratings- Birth of NCCS Leigh Ortenberger Summit 1963

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donini

Trad climber

Ouray, Colorado

Jun 12, 2010 - 02:37pm PT

Ortenberger was a great guy but very conservative and slightly behind the times even in the late 60's when I met him. Damn good thing Roper didn't adopt the F system. Steve you must be sitting out the rain like I am.

Wayno

Big Wall climber

Seattle, WA

Jun 12, 2010 - 03:02pm PT

No rain here. Steve must have a honey-do list going.

So how do we adjust for egos in FA ratings? I think Donini has some good ideas about this.

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Jun 12, 2010 - 03:17pm PT

The best solution is to go back and repeat your FA's so you get a clear idea of difficulty. When you are worried about what's ahead then climbing becomes more a matter of immediate doability, black and white success.

We had a bad problem with underrating climbs in Arizona with most routes off by a full YDS number grade. My experience climbing elsewhere made it obvious that all it was accomplishing was bumming out visiting climbers so I began to rate my own routes soft to try to even out the grades. I certainly took some abuse for it automatically but my intention wasn't to inflate anything, quite the reverse.

ydpl8s

Trad climber

Santa Monica, California

Jun 12, 2010 - 03:29pm PT

From what I've seen, everybody is so proud of their own home turf that they all think that "their" area is sandbagged compared to all others. I think this is perpetuated when people come to a new area and are not familiar with the technique that is best used for the unique rock in that particular area. Their initial failings, until they get used to the area, only reinforce the locals pride in his home crag.

Of course, then some smartass rockmaster comes along and makes them all look like they're over inflating.

SteveW

Trad climber

The state of confusion

Jun 12, 2010 - 05:18pm PT

I was lucky enough to meet Ortenberger on the Grand in 1974.
Too bad he perished in the Oakland fire. . .

Peter Haan

Trad climber

San Francisco, CA

Jun 12, 2010 - 08:15pm PT

Thanks StevieW. I was gonna say.

Imagine, all those years, decades truly, Leigh on high peaks and walls, and he would perish in an urban firestorm, albeit one that killed 25, consumed 3354 homes, 437 apartments and condos, ate up 1520 acres and $1.5 billion in dollars. How ironic and meaningless.

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Jun 27, 2010 - 02:44pm PT

A nice shot of Leigh from an article on Andean climbing in Summit June/July 1978.

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 5, 2010 - 01:04pm PT

For all the arcane-0-philes out there in ST land! This is Harvey Carter's version of a rating system as it appeared in Summit magazine September/ October 1957. This may be the earliest attempt to formally define ratings albeit a rather far out one!

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 25, 2010 - 02:35pm PT

Harvey T. Carter Bump!

jogill

climber

Colorado

Dec 25, 2010 - 08:32pm PT

Anyone hear anything about Harvey T. ? Back in the early 1960s he conducted some sort of national bouldering contest in Colorado Springs.

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Dec 25, 2010 - 09:18pm PT

You might contact crunch (Steve Bartlett) or groundup if you are looking for an update on Harvey.

hamie

Social climber

Thekoots

Jan 5, 2011 - 10:14pm PT

Bump!

I have recently read Fall Failing, vol 2 of Royal Robbins' bio. On page 102, referring to the 'Mugelnoos',the monthly newsletter of the Rock Climbing Section of the Sierra Club, he says:

"In the August 1953 issue, a new method of classifying climbs was introduced by that month's editor, Chuck Wilts. This method was called the Decimal System. It had been developed after long discussions between Wilts, Don Wilson and me [RR]."

On page 105 there is a chart entitled, 'The Known Routes on Tahquitz Rock', listing 34 routes. The easiest climbs shown are Friction Route 1 and 11. These are rated at 2.7 and 2.8!! Pretty scarey stuff!! Red Rock Route is 4.5, and Tree Route is 4.8

It would appear that the Sierra-Wilts system, forerunner of the YDS might well have been called the Sierra-Wilts-Wilson-Robbins System. YDS sounds better to me.

H.

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 5, 2011 - 10:26pm PT

The idea was on a lot of people's minds with good reason. A nice range instead of a lot of local greater and lesser thans. The roots of it all are fascinating.

When DR and I interviewed Glen Dawson, he had an extensive collection of notebooks from various portions of his rich and wonderful life. He had the mythical first guidebook to Tahquitz in the appropriate binder, one of four copies! It gives an interesting glimpse into the earliest days there.

Fourth class-length, now there's some nomenclature!

The Trough was Tom Frost's RCS checkout climb in 1959 at 5.0. It rates third class-length here. LOL

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2011 - 05:59pm PT

A 1962 letter from Jim Baldwin (posted by Hamie) while he was working on the Dihedral Wall makes mention of the sixth grade in use as applied to aid climbing.

"Still very bad nailing, continuous 6.7 and 6.8 sometimes 6.9."

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 15, 2011 - 06:04pm PT

A page from "A Climber's Guide to the Squamish Chief Area", written by Jim Baldwin in 1962. Note use of the 6.0 - 6.9 grading system for aid.
One thing that is amusing is that so many modern guidebooks waste space on discussion and comparison of grading systems.

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 15, 2011 - 06:17pm PT

Very nice cross reference sheet Anders!

Seems a bit bottom heavy!

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 15, 2011 - 07:17pm PT

For the first while, Squamish climbers didn't have much experience at other areas, and so didn't really understand the grading system. So many of the free ratings in Jim's book, and indeed in Glenn's guidebook from 1967, are 2 - 3 decimal points below what they should be.

The pendulum has now swung, perhaps too far in the other direction, so that Diedre, orignally graded 5.4, is now allegedly 5.8.