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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:17pm PT
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Not a bad idea, Josh. And to expand on my earlier comment: for me, leading is sometimes about ego, and usually not. The experience of top-roping is majorly different than leading, and I prefer the latter when the cojones are willing to cooperate. And at times...they refuse to submit.
Edit: Apogee...you said it better than I. Thanks.
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 10, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
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Easy Josh...wow! I guess my comments AFTER the reference to my age didn't clarify what my point was (the consequences of using text to communicate). Let me try again...At this stage in my life I'm trying (key word) to get my pride out of the picture when making a decision such as this one and I already stated what happens when I fail to do so. It's about you Josh and others. Thanks Warbler, Apogee, et al, for the support.
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apogee
climber
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Dec 10, 2009 - 01:59pm PT
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"...when making a decision such as this one..."
I guess that's the part that rubs me wrong- why do you believe that it is your decision to make?
This reminds me of the recent 'new bolts on the Nose' thread- someone introducing bolts on a well-established route in an area with strong historical ethics- even though they seemed well-intentioned, the sense that it was their decision to make is quite upsetting to many people.
We aren't talking about some random granite egg somewhere in an undeveloped area...we're talking about Uncertainty Principle at Mt Woodson, one of the most iconic, classic routes at Woodson. It deserves protection and thoughtful discussion from all who climb there, and retro-bolting it without the input of the FA's, in an area that is historically a TR/bouldering area, is a big leap.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Dec 10, 2009 - 02:04pm PT
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//If someone wants the "lead" experience, they can drop a static line from the anchor with loops tied in it for clipping quick draws to. No harm no foul....
//
Now that is cool! Never contemplated that one before.
Arne
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 10, 2009 - 02:13pm PT
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i think the real bottom line here is that the bolts would get chopped, leaving scars. i can think of a couple people right off the top of my head who would be sure to do it. they have intensely strong feelings about bolting things that have always been tr's or solos at woodson.
in any event, placing bolts that you knew for a fact -- and i think that's the case here -- were gonna get chopped is sort of irresponsible. san diego has been the scene of intense bolt wars off and on for the last 30 years. remember cool jerk and hairdo? let's not open that can of worms again.
as an aside, this is the first i've heard the approach slab for uncertaintly has been bolted. that's absurd, and despite myself it irritates me -- and i don't get to woodson but once or twice a year these days.
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hossjulia
Trad climber
Eastside
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Dec 10, 2009 - 02:35pm PT
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I'm from San Diego, I've climbed at Woodson, a fair bit.
I thought it was a bouldering area with a few tr anchors we never used. Bolted routes? Geez. Kinda short for the effort, no?
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snowey
Trad climber
San Diego
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Dec 10, 2009 - 02:43pm PT
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"I personally think the way it is, TR or Boulder, with a few long standing exceptions is something really special in todays age of climbing."
I agree completely. This is part of what makes woodson such a special place.
Also, I agree with Josh.
If anyone is interested, we can all agree on a time one of these weekends to set up that static line. I think it would be an interesting experience to let everyone have a go at it. The question is, how far do you place the knots.....
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Peenemunde
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Dec 10, 2009 - 02:50pm PT
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Surprise
3rd Pitch of the Nose
Uncertainty Principle
I do not have unlimitied time to chop.
Juan
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Dec 10, 2009 - 02:52pm PT
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I do not have unlimitied time to chop.
not to worry, some addled old-school woodson bolshevik will take care of it for you.
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apogee
climber
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Dec 10, 2009 - 03:01pm PT
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The difference between Surprise & P3 Nose is that in the case of Surprise, the FA'ist was involved in the retro-bolt of another route that merges with it- whether this meets one's standard for the decision to retro-bolt or not is another question, but at least the FA'ist was involved in the process. In the case of the P3 Nose, an individual took it upon themself to make that decision and then do it. There seems to be a distinct similarity in the OP's intent here.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Dec 10, 2009 - 03:35pm PT
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Good point brought up earlier, regardless of what conclusion we here come to, the bolts WILL get chopped by somebody. For that matter alone, better leave it be. Lots of good sport routes on some hills out east of there.
Strange sometimes, a lot of my memories of early trips to woodson were. Toppign out a 10 foot boulder problem and finding a pair of bolts. Cool, I guess I just free soloed?
Other areas would be fine for that idea (mission gorge, dixon, Santee come to mind) but Woodson has always been an insular and ethical Island, I mean it has a Royal route on it! The precedent was set in the sixties, and followed with routes by Bachar et al, so its nice to have an area with a more traditional standard. Plenty of sport climbs all over san diego.
Now the Crucible, THAT thing needs bolts. Who wants to drag a couple huge cams up that hill??
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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
Will know soon
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Dec 10, 2009 - 06:30pm PT
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Gosh, spent alot of time at this special place watching Dan and other dang good climbers have fun with this great rock. It was considered a bouldering area back in my day. Never saw anyone do something that was bolted to the best of my recollection. I've got one or two rad slides of guys doing highballs, maybe before the term existed. lynne
Edit: jess thinkin' .....had no bouldering giganto pads then. At best a thin piece of carpet to wipe your shoes on....and no specialty shoes. You used the same one pair of climbing shoes for everything. No money for other options.
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shipoopoi
Big Wall climber
oakland
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Dec 10, 2009 - 07:13pm PT
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ahh, the UP is a classic that netted me the california bouldering championship first place in 1987 when i flashed it but local (chris's dad) lindner couldn't repeat it though he had done it before. i would say a few bolts does not hurt it if they are in the right place, and it does not matter how they go in to me, BUT, it WILL matter to somebody else who will disagree enough to chop, remove, or mutilate said bolts, and so the rock is the entity that suffers. so i vote to leave it alone. shipoopoi
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blr
climber
socal
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Dec 10, 2009 - 08:27pm PT
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"And as far as doing this to gain anything for myself...no son, it's not for me, it's for you for I am nothing."
Thanks, but no thanks?
"If anything, maybe my agenda should be removing convenience bolts instead of bolting Uncertainty!"
Maybe not having an agenda at all would be the best way to go. Let's just leave Woodson alone in peace. Everybody seems to be content with it the way it is.
-A current-day Woodson local.
oh, and it would get chopped for sure.
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gonzo chemist
climber
the Twilight Zone of someone else's intentions
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Dec 10, 2009 - 09:19pm PT
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I haven't spent as much time down at Woodson as many people on here have. But I have done a bit of climbing down there. I side with Josh on this one. Just leave the face as it is. Its a wonderful climb as it is, no need to mar up the rock any further. To me, it would be like putting a bolt right in the middle of Stairway To Heaven. Just no need...
And I think it was Erik Knuth that soloed U.P.
-Nick
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EK
climber
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Dec 10, 2009 - 11:19pm PT
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I believe the only solo of Uncertainty Principle was done by my brother, Chris Knuth, back in the early 90s (I think).
There is a photo of him soloing it in Dave Kennedy's Woodson guidebook.
Eric Knuth
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Ray Olson
Trad climber
Imperial Beach, California
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Dec 11, 2009 - 12:51am PT
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^^^
quite the solo!
amazing...
if the bolts are going to get chopped, then leave it;
the concensus on the thing (a good example of the
gray are in SD climbing) being valued as a lead seems
limited...
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illusiondweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2009 - 04:05am PT
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Hey, thanks for the input everyone. It looks to be pretty unanimous on leaving UP unbolted. Let's go climbing! Anyone up for leading Mother Superior? Look me up. Ill take the sharp end after you. Drop me a line...illusiondweller at hotmail dot kom.
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Watusi
Social climber
Newport, OR
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Dec 12, 2009 - 12:01pm PT
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Thanks for clearing this up...I do remember that it was Chris Knuth, now that it was mentioned, but I knew it had been soloed. I guess you get a cross section of opinions here Gary and it appears that folks would prefer to allow it to remain a TR. You might want to hook up with Kevin and get to some of those amazing crags he's located in the county if you have the FA bug.
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