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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Doesn't it seem strange that given the dozens, maybe even hundreds of people who must have been involved in firing a missile into the Pentagon and then making everyone think it's an airplane (not to mention the actually plane and it's passengers, where did they all go?) that no one thought to make the hole look more like what a plane would make? Such a big conspiracy yet such a glaring error in execution?
There is something really fishy about all of this!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Absolutely knott!!
I suppose the shooting at Ft. Hood was a government conspiracy as well given it was marked by the exact same FBI/Mil intra- and inter-agency bungling and ineptitude seen with 9/11.
NOTHING in any post-9/11 'reporting' or 'research' - especially with regards to the Pentagon and WTC7 - even rises to the level of common sense after reviewing available timelines, details, and facts.
Like IED plasma weapons made from hand-hammered copper plates and triggered by old cell phones or $5 dollar RC toy cars - successful strategies in asymmetric warfare by definition are those employing simple tactics and methods to exploit the inherent complexities of a vastly 'superior' enemy.
The most common failing of all the ('active' vs. 'passive') 9/11 Conspiracy theories is the unspoken of, yet requisite, coordination between the private, local, state, and federal entities which would be mandatory for any such scenario - way too many people would have to have been involved.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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no one thought to make the hole look more like what a plane would make?
What sort of 'hole' do you expect 100 tons of aluminum containing at least 6000 gallons of jet fuel to make in a building when it hits it at 300 mph? It isn't going to be very neat.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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I've known. All of it never felt right from the get go. So I read a book called "Crossing The Rubicon". Tough read. I'm glad Bachar managed to read it before he left. Most of it's about peak oil but it really weaves so much together.
Not ashamed,
Arne
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Mark Hudon
Trad climber
Hood River, OR
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Yeah! and what about that plane? Where did it and all it's passengers go? That would have been no mean feat to deal with. It had to take off somewhere and it had to land and then "disappear" somewhere and somehow? What about all the passengers?
Was they actually not a single piece of the plane left at the crash scene at the Pentagon? How did a 'missle' make the hole and then leave all that plane wreckage strewn about?
Reily, I'm playing off the fact that the conspiracy guys are so out to prove that the hole doesn't match up to what a plane should have made, that the masterminds of the conspiracy screwed up when they didn't make it look more like a plane.
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Jay Wood
Trad climber
Fairfax, CA
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100 +/- ton airplane.
100 +/- tons of debris? ......
Not observed by many witnesses including those who escaped out of the blast hole onto the unaffected lawn.
Regarding the question of what happened to the plane and passengers if it didn't hit the Pentagon,
 The same question must be answered the other way: what happened to the plane if it DID hit the building?
Where's the wreckage, the engines, the seats, the tail section, the wiring, the sheets of aluminum. Where's the human remains, the bone fragments? Where's the thousands of gallons of fuel that figure so significantly in the explanation of the twin towers' collapse?
It's magical thinking to have it both ways- on the same day, no less, one plane causes a 110 story building to collapse utterly, and a similar plane doesn't burn the lawn and makes a 20' hole.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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What you deniers OCT people can't get your head around is the idea that our government and other governments do this stuff. It is called a "False-flag" black-op. You can get anyone to do just about anything and go along with the plan as long as you think it is legit and that the attack really did happen the way they said it did. They will kill their very own citizens and soldiers for an agenda.
Got some news for you:
Operation Northwoods
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
You can read the official archive of this at the OFFICIAL gov archive at GWU I believe (will have to find the link again). Remember, our own Joint Chiefs of Staff in DOD wanted to kill our own to pull this off, and make it look like Cuba attacked us. Kennedy said "No way," and it was one of the reasons they assassinated him.
Who killed Martin Luther King Jr. ?
Our very own government with the help of the Nashville police etc.
Read the book "Act of State." Special Forces personal came out and openly confessed in trial. They were put up to it, and did not realize at the time what they were being asked to do. Several had to escape the country to save their lives, and later returned to testify in trial.
YES, A SECRET LAWLESS CRIMINAL CABAL WITHIN OUR GOVERNMENT CAN AND DOES DO THIS. JUST CHECK OUT THE WHOLE BLACKWATER/XE FIASCO.
"AMERICA: THE UNITED STATES OF ASSASSINS"
Sorry, it doesn't fit your perfect world view of the USA, but they do this and in our name. Wake-up.
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pedge
Trad climber
SW
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You "know" 911 was a conspiracy orchestrated by our government? I believe that the woman sitting outside my office is my secretary and a human being because her behavior falls within that range that is consistent with other individuals I also have considered to be human beings. I don't know for sure that she is human, but because I also believe that if I was to treat her as anything other than a human I would suffer, as would she.
The government agents working on the 911 conspiracy, have, if your allegations are accurate, been acting outside the range of normal human behavior. Is anyone going to do anything about it?
We need communities. We need other people. Sub-logical, irrational accusatory conspiracy theories can be as damaging to a society as slanderous gossip can be in a small community. Currently it provides support for the anti-science movement. It undermines the effectiveness of work to address real corruption in government and real manipulation of the public by corporate interests.
The real conspiracy at issue is the one that allows and encourages nut-jobs to take up public space with non-issues that detract from real issues. When people don't shout these dim bulbs down because they are afraid of being rude they are complicit in the degradation of public discourse and debate which are essential to a democracy.
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Klimmer, and to a lesser degree myself, have for at least several years known that the 9-11 attack on the Pentagon was a fraud and a horror perpetuated on the peoples of the United States, devised to leverage a terrible attack on our shores into a War of Empire that we otherwise would never have embarked upon.
dude. lay off the crack.
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dirtbag
climber
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^^^What pedge and bvb said.
Ditto that.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I know that we don't have the true story. I know that the government is covering up the truth.
Just don't know what that truth is. Even the 9-11 commission admits they left stuff out, didn't track down information, didn't follow the money, and were politically motivated.
Check out Lee Hamilton has been a part of every whitewash investigation the government has needed to have.
I'm 100% for a rigorous independent investigation that seeks to answer all questions.
How come when we read the 9-11 report, we don't hear about the military exercises that day that drew jets away from NY and DC and put false blips on the radar screen. How come they ignored "Able Danger?" Why all the evidence burned and covered up when it was such a big deal.
I want it all in the dang open and then I'll decide
PEace
Karl
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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A plane at 500mph hiting a feet thick granite wall that was originaly built to withstand German bombs?
The energy released was around 4 to the 13th foot pounds
Most of the plane vaporized.
The engine cores were found deep in the structure.
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Reeotch
Trad climber
Kayenta, AZ
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Regardless of weather or not our government had anything to do with it, it is our government's continuing misguided response to the 911 attacks that scares me far more than the slim chance that terrorists would be able to pull off such a thing again.
And, now Obama is using the same fear-mongering rhetoric that Bush did to justify this perpetual "War On Terror".
And if you think it will end with Afganistan, you are sadly mistaken.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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It didn't end at the gates of Vienna.
Ferdinand and Isabella didn't end it.
It Didn't end at Tripoli.
And it won't end in Afghanistan.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Anyone who expects government bungling and ineptitude at connecting dots to end is pretty damn naive. Ditto for cover-ups pertaining to said bungling and ineptitude. It's the nature of man and complexity.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
Monrovia, CA
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Jay Wood,
You're a bit off on your chemistry and physics.
You neglected to add the 20 tons of fuel to the 100 tons of airplane.
100 tons AL + 20 tons fuel does not equal 100 tons of debris especially
when mixed with the thousands of tons of building debris.
They most certainly do have the titanium fan blades and structural steel items that did not burn/melt.
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WBraun
climber
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Sibel Edmonds was labeled a wingnut, screwball, chasing deomons and other consortium of names and labels for years also.
Unfortunately for her detractors, top level people in the business have confirmed her as bonafide in her allegations.
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Ray Olson
Trad climber
Imperial Beach, California
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screw the pentagon,
Michael Jackson is alive!
holy sh*t!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sibel Edmonds is definitely legit - but that's about covering up bungling, ineptitude and bad policy/program decisions.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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These threads tend to show that:
1. There is such a thing as perpetual motion.
2. The second law of thermodynamics doesn't apply to them, in that they tend to maximum energy and maximum entropy at the same time.
3. The millenariast/crackpot/conspiracy theory/true believer streak of US popular culture is alive and well. Unfortunately.
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