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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 03:58pm PT
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Pate,
I don't see how PTPP's request is at all out of line. He's not starting a jihad. He hasn't issued a fatwa. He hasn't anathematized you. He's simply asking that people take it easy with something that he and many others find offensive. It's really no different from someone asking that you avoid disrespecting a family member. You're still free to disagree.
The essence of free speech is protection of offensive speech, because no other speech needs protection. The essence of community, however, is attempting to moderate our actions to take into account the feelings (as opposed to the thoughts) of others.
Again, you're free to say what you want. So is PTPP. As I said before, as a believer, I particularly liked your Jesus vs. Jeezus cartoon. As for anything I don't like, my Savior is perfectly capable of defending Himself.
John
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Chinchen
climber
Anacortes, wa
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Nov 20, 2009 - 04:18pm PT
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KRS-1 got it right a long time ago.
*EDITED FOR STUPIDITY**
refer to post #64
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 04:25pm PT
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I'm a card-carrying atheist, and I agree with PTPP.
Ragging on someone's personal beliefs gets old. Take it elsewhere.
GO
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Mason
Trad climber
Yay Area
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Nov 20, 2009 - 04:40pm PT
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I also agree with PTPP, I think it's pretty despicable to make fun of someone's beliefs.
I respect Christian and Jewish beliefs and I'm a Muslim. I also respect Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Shintoists and their beliefs.
I used to be a doubter and I still have not found truth yet and believe in all the dogma of any religion including my own, but I found that completely denying any belief or faith in something leaves people bitter, angry and generally unhappy in life.
I never found the point of proving someone wrong in their beliefs.
It didn't make them like me any better.
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 04:43pm PT
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Pate refers to PTPP's "typically Christian condescending attitude"
On the Taco, it not the Christians who most often or most stridently express condescending attitudes toward personal beliefs and the people who hold them.
gm
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Chinchen
climber
Anacortes, wa
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Nov 20, 2009 - 04:51pm PT
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http://www.myspace.com/jasonchinchen
Listen to Glass Crosses by yours truly. Me and jeezus go way back.
EDIT.....I hate it when you guys pull your posts....That one was funny.
PATE, right there with ya man.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 20, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
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When PTPP asks for a little respect it seems reasonable, until you think it through and realize that he's implying that non Christians are, 'wrong'. That's pretty direspectful to the majority of people in the world, don't you think?
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Chinchen
climber
Anacortes, wa
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Nov 20, 2009 - 05:01pm PT
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Thanks!
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 05:12pm PT
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Jaybro,
I disagree with your conclusion that PTPP is "implying that non Christians are, 'wrong'." It's not an issue of Christians being right and non-christians wrong. That type of binary thinking is the same as "you're either with me or against me," "America, love it or leave it" and so on which ignore any possibility of middle ground. I don't follow your logical leap of faith (pun intended).
By middle ground, I mean an attitude like "I don't believe in jesus, but you can make up your own mind. No harm, no foul." AKA tolerance.
Gene
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Nov 20, 2009 - 05:20pm PT
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yes Gene, most of us do live in shades of gray, that was part of my point.
The 'you must respect Jesus, because he is Jesus', view seems pretty black and white. exactly like the george bush quote you alluded to.
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 05:42pm PT
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Money for nothing and chicks for free? I'm cool with that.
Only if you tithe....
Just messing.
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Redwreck
Social climber
Echo Parque, Los Angeles, CA
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Nov 20, 2009 - 06:07pm PT
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I wonder how those would look in black latex?
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Wes Allen
Boulder climber
KY
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Nov 20, 2009 - 06:43pm PT
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Gene
Social climber
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Nov 20, 2009 - 07:12pm PT
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Wes,
I got a question. Although I am overjoyed for you that you have a god, which, I suppose, means that you believe in (a) supernatural being(s), I have forgotten his name. Tell me about your god.
Do you tithe? Wear funky undies? Do you tolerate infidels? Do you proselytize? What's his view on clean climbing? I love the comparative study of religions.
Have a good weekend All,
Peace,
Gene
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Wes Allen
Boulder climber
KY
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Nov 20, 2009 - 07:20pm PT
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Pretty sure the name is Thor, but I don't really know, I don't really have any god(s) to speak of. Just thought it was an appropriate image to share.
This is a fun site for all the godless heathens, but not so much if you are worried about disrespecting Jesus/the church/etc:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Nov 20, 2009 - 08:28pm PT
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I kinda like the image of Jesus with the lamb, that's kinda how I think of him, hella nice guy. Sombrero seems a bit outa place, but what the hell.
Pete, loved your slide show at Facelift! A bit of satire is ok, but the stuff above kinda crosses the line, doncha think? Just like the Danish cartoonist - my understanding is the sketches were pretty graphic and sexual. How come you guys never posted those here? Those are a lot more graphic.
"When PTPP asks for a little respect it seems reasonable, until you think it through and realize that he's implying that non Christians are, 'wrong'. That's pretty direspectful to the majority of people in the world, don't you think?"
Good grief, Jaybro. Please don't put words in my mouth. I did not in any way say nor imply this.
"If I misread and am wrong about your typically Christian condescending attitude, please let me know."
Yes, I believe you are wrong. That was never my intent. I was just askin' nicely, y'know?
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Mare Infinitum
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Nov 20, 2009 - 10:05pm PT
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All I know is, It's Time for Toast!
Want some?
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Nov 21, 2009 - 01:22am PT
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Maybe this really is the image of Jesus Christ after all?
Researcher: Faint writing seen on Shroud of Turin
By ARIEL DAVID, Associated Press Writer Ariel David, Associated Press Writer – 22 mins ago
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091120/ap_on_re_eu/eu_italy_shroud_of_turin
Barbara Frale, a researcher at the Vatican archives, says in a new book that she used computer-enhanced images of the shroud to decipher faintly written words in Greek, Latin and Aramaic scattered across the cloth.
She asserts that the words include the name "(J)esu(s) Nazarene" — or Jesus of Nazareth — in Greek. That, she said, proves the text could not be of medieval origin because no Christian at the time, even a forger, would have mentioned Jesus without referring to his divinity. Failing to do so would risk being branded a heretic.
"Even someone intent on forging a relic would have had all the reasons to place the signs of divinity on this object," Frale said Friday. "Had we found 'Christ' or the 'Son of God' we could have considered it a hoax, or a devotional inscription."
The shroud bears the figure of a crucified man, complete with blood seeping from his hands and feet, and believers say Christ's image was recorded on the linen's fibers at the time of his resurrection.
The fragile artifact, owned by the Vatican, is kept locked in a protective chamber in a Turin cathedral and is rarely shown. Measuring 13 feet (four meters) long and three feet (one meter) wide, the shroud has suffered severe damage through the centuries, including from fire.
The Catholic Church makes no claims about the cloth's authenticity, but says it is a powerful symbol of Christ's suffering.
There has been strong debate about it in the scientific community.
Skeptics point out that radiocarbon dating conducted on the cloth in 1988 determined it was made in the 13th or 14th century.
But Raymond Rogers of Los Alamos National Laboratory said in 2005 that the tested threads came from patches used to repair the shroud after a fire. Rogers, who died shortly after publishing his findings, calculated it is 1,300 to 3,000 years old and could easily date from Jesus' era.
Another study, by the Hebrew University, concluded that pollen and plant images on the shroud showed it originated in the area around Jerusalem sometime before the eighth century.
While faint letters scattered around the face on the shroud were seen decades ago, serious researchers dismissed them, due to the results of the radiocarbon dating test, Frale told The Associated Press.
But when she cut out the words from enhanced photos of the shroud and showed them to experts, they concurred the writing style was typical of the Middle East in the first century — Jesus' time.
She believes the text was written on a document by a clerk and glued to the shroud over the face so the body could be identified by relatives and buried properly. Metals in the ink used at the time may have allowed the writing to transfer to the linen, Frale said.
She said she counted at least 11 words in her study of enhanced images produced by French scientists in a 1994 study. The words are fragmented and scattered on and around the image's head, crisscrossing the cloth vertically and horizontally.
One short sequence of Aramaic letters has not been fully translated. Another fragment in Greek — "iber" — may refer to Emperor Tiberius, who reigned at the time of Jesus' crucifixion, Frale said.
She said the text also partially confirms the Gospels' account of Jesus' final moments. A fragment in Greek that can be read as "removed at the ninth hour" may refer to Christ's time of death reported in the holy texts, she said.
In her book "The Shroud of Jesus Nazarene," published in Italian, Frale reconstructs from the lettering on the shroud what she believes Jesus' death certificate said: "Jesus Nazarene. Found (guilty of inciting the people to revolt). Put to death in the year 16 of Tiberius. Taken down at the ninth hour."
She said the text then stipulates the body will returned to relatives after a year.
Frale said her research was done without the support of the Vatican.
"I tried to be objective and leave religious issues aside," Frale told the AP. "What I studied was an ancient document that certifies the execution of a man, in a specific time and place."
I always thought that this image of Jesus in a Sikhote-Alin meteorite that I have looks a great deal like the image of Christ in the Shroud of Turin . . . Well, at least it does to me.
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Captain...or Skully
Social climber
Mare Infinitum
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Nov 21, 2009 - 01:31am PT
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All I know is, Toast is tastier.
Let them eat toast!
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Chinchen
climber
Anacortes, wa
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Nov 21, 2009 - 02:37am PT
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Oh man Im an idiot, I posted the wrong KRS 1 song.
This is the lyrics to Why is That?
Accurate? I think so if my sunday school memories serve me.
IF there was a jesus, he was pretty tan.
The day begins, with a grin
And a prayer to excuse my sins
I can walk anywhere I choose
Cause everybody listens to the B.D.P. crew
We're not here for glamour or fashion
But here's the question I'm askin
Why is it young black kids taught {flashin?}
They're only taught how to read, write, and act
It's like teachin a dog to be a cat
You don't teach white kids to be black
Why is that? Is it because we're the minority?
Well black kids follow me
Genesis chapter eleven verse ten
Explains the geneology of Shem
Shem was a black man, in Africa
If you repeat this fact they can't laugh at ya
Genesis fourteen verse thirteen
Abraham steps on the scene
Being a descendant of Shem which is a fact
Means, Abraham too was black
Abraham born in the city of a black man
Called Nimrod grandson of Ham
Ham had four sons, one was named Canaan
Here, let me do some explaining
Abraham was the father of Isaac
Isaac was the father of Jacob
Jacob had twelve sons, for real
And these, were the children of Israel
According to Genesis chapter ten
Egyptians descended from Ham
Six hundred years later, my brother, read up
Moses was born in Egypt
In this era black Egyptians weren't right
They enslaved black Israelites
Moses had to be of the black race
Because he spent forty years in Pharaoh's place
He passed as the Pharaoh's grandson
So he had to look just like him
Yes my brothers and sisters take this here song
Yo, correct the wrong
The information we get today is just wack
But ask yourself, why is that?
Verse Two
The age of the ignorant rapper is done
Knowledge Reigns Supreme Over Nearly Everyone
The stereotype must be lost
That love and peace and knowledge is soft
Do away with that and understand one fact
For love, peace must attack
And attack real strong, stronger than war
To conquer it and its law
Mental pictures, stereotypes and fake history
Reinforces mystery
And when mystery is reinforced
That only means that knowledge has been lost
When you know who you really are
Peace and knowledge shines like a star
I'm only showin you a simple fact
It Takes A Nation of MILLIONS to Hold Us people Back
Which is wack, but we can correct that
Teach and learn what it is to be black
Cause they're teachin birds to be a cat
But ask yourself homeboy, why is that?
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