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arete
Trad climber
Estes Park, Colorado
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Sep 20, 2005 - 11:30am PT
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"my point is that the bolts were there why f$#% with it?"
This is a nice justification for retro-bolters to go ahead and retro whatever they want. Gives them the final word.
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426
Sport climber
Obed
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Sep 20, 2005 - 11:34am PT
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"Respect for the FA needs to be upheld and community enforement is the only recourse available to those who actually care about the soul of climbing."
Respect the FA's wishes-That's why I think this issue is raised. It appears that the FA gave his approval to add a few bits o' metal, yet, someone else (aka the enforcer) took it into their hands to remove bolts that were okay'ed by the FA party.
Besides this, often the FA's are climbing light years below their ability on a 5.9 FA, which is kind of my point earlier in the thread....go up on some 11 in the meadows (generally) and you'll find bolts every body length, even on "ol' skool"...
Anyone done the Dike Route clipping no bolts, in the FA style? Maybe an "enforcer" should go up there and reinstate it to Gerughty's original line, even though TG gave permission to add bolts later.(?)
....So I guess we ended up going Robbin's school...'tis a pity, I was always more of a Harding man...
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atchafalaya
Trad climber
California
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Sep 20, 2005 - 11:55am PT
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I was with dodangler this weekend at HR Buttress, and my opinion isnt worth 2 cents when it comes to whether HR Buttress should be retro-bolted because I did not do the FA, same as everyone else who chimed in. However, I had thought that the FA party supported the additional bolts, and had reasons to justify their placement other than I am old, bold and badass, and everyon else needs to follow my ethics. If that is not the case, then I understand the controversy.
Beautiful route... incredible feature, incredible line... maybe someday I will have the sack.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
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Sep 20, 2005 - 12:05pm PT
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What about the actual retro-bolting? Whose idea was it? Did Clevenger or Higgins
have 2nd thoughts/regrets after the FA –– or did someone broach the idea and receive "permission"?
Am I inferring correctly that Higgins was against the retro-bolting––while Clevenger consented?
The fact that it was retro'd by someone else leads me to believe that someone
may have whined that it was very, very scary, and that someone could get hoit.
What's the general consensus/feeling of the locals regarding this route?
Let's hear the full scoop!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 20, 2005 - 01:03pm PT
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As I said, a bit of a quandry when the FA party is split on the topic and only one gives permission to retro while the other is completely against it. Again, I'd say leave it alone under those circumstances as who wants to get into an FA bitch fest.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Straight Outta Squamton
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Sep 20, 2005 - 01:13pm PT
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Reading the RC.com thread linked above, it does look like someone else came up
with the idea, and pushed to have the route retro-bolted, and received "permission".
The bottom line is that Clevenger apparently was not happy with the result.
Here's the relevant post:
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User: rocknroll
Posted: 19 Apr 2005 23:03
Years ago, before Hairraiser was retro bolted, I tried to put up a new route to the left of Hairaiser. I ran it out about 40 feet (groundfall) and drilled a 1/4" bolt. I looked down at the ground and over at hairaiser 15 feet away and thought "this is silly. 40 foot run out right next to a classic line?" (Remember Hairaiser had only 3 bolts on the first pitch and only towards the top, slung chickenheads were the pro). I joined Hairaiser and gave up the route.
Years later Alan Hirahara, famous sushi chef (who never could a get date even though he entertained beautiful woman all the time at work while wearing a japaneese bath robe), asked me what I thought about him retro bolting HairRaiser. I said it was entirely up to the first acensionist Vern Clevenger. The next time I saw Vern he agreed that the route could use a few more bolts. I relayed this info to Al, who promptly retro bolted the route. Vern was not happy. Alan did not follow my instructions and talk to the first ascentionist. He went strictly on my word. I guess Vern felt there were too many bolts.
Years later, I go to do the new and improved Hairraiser and discover he didn't even bolt the ankle breaking move at the bottom. And not only that, he didn't even bolt the first pitch. Since very few sport climbers know much about natural protection, especially how to tie a butterfly knot on a chickenhead, everyone headed for that lone bolt I placed years ago 40 feet up. Alan bolted this line. The actual Hairraiser Buttress climbs up 15 feet and traverses straight right to the center of the buttress where you can sling some chicken heads.
Later I discovered another route of mine on the back side of Granite Mountain, Dick Van Dike had also been retro-bolted. Everytime I came to the Sushi bar I would bemoan the fate of that route to Alan " The nutting was intricate and you had to think...but it was totally safe. Alan, who would ruin such a classic trad route?" Alan would shrug his sholuders and hand me another free poke salad.
On his third or fourth going away party at the retaurant, Alan fessed up. "I bolted it. I thought it hadn't been climbed. Do you want me to chop it?"
"No, no sense in that. People are enjoying it the way it is." As I was getting up to leave, Alan handed me a free bucket full of Poke salad.
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Hmmm. Very interesting, indeed.
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Wrathchild
Big Wall climber
Lee NH
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Sep 20, 2005 - 01:21pm PT
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You sold out for salad? I'd have held out for at least some maguro...
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Sep 20, 2005 - 01:24pm PT
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Well, it was a poke salad. shoyu seasoned ahi. Very nice!
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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Sep 20, 2005 - 02:01pm PT
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Just this past weekend, I climbed a route and clipped an old piton. Then I realized that by using cams and nuts at any location on that route that I thought I needed protection, I was bringing the route down to my level. I must be some kind of jerk to get on that route and not use pitons and not place gear except for every thirty feet like the FA did.
So why is it totally okay to bring the route down to my level and protect it the way I want to just because I climb with nuts, cams, and hexes? Why is it so totally wrong for the sport climbes to not have that same benefit.
I'm not proposing that things be grid bolted. I proposing that we try to look at how we act and treat people who climb and maybe cut them a little slack for doing the exact same thing the rest of us do. They want to get on that route but since it's a bolted route, they don't have the same options that trad climbers have, and take, every day. Bummer for them not having a crack nearby or they could bring it down to their level without raising a single eyebrow.
Dave
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Mick K
climber
Northern Sierra
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Sep 20, 2005 - 02:31pm PT
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This weekend I went on a climbing trip to belay/second (way out of shape to even think about leading) my buddies on an attempt on Hair Raiser Buttress but, as you know, the route was restored. Sucks for us! I would have like to climb it.
As with all failed attempts, even this one, the route goes into "the closet." It will be a big day when I finally clean this one from the closet, if ever. Even with the use of toprope preview, mega beta, preplaced slings, stick clips, steroids, caffeine, and any other type of trickery I can think of, a lead of this route may never be within my ability. That is ok because there are lots of routes I will never have the ability to climb.
However, at 5.9 I am positive I can climb the moves on this route, it is the potential consequences that nags at me. Granted, I need to get back into climbing shape but my head that really needs work before I think about leading the HRB.
I suspect this climb will torment me until I clean it from the closet. I know it is already tormenting Atachafalaya and Dodangler and probably many others who could do the physical 5.9 moves but not the mental gymnastics required. Besides, no one falls off 5.9 slab-you’d have to jump..
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arete
Trad climber
Estes Park, Colorado
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Sep 20, 2005 - 03:01pm PT
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Alan fessed up. "I bolted it. I thought it hadn't been climbed. Do you want me to chop it?"
Thought it hadn't been climbed? I don't think it matters to him. Out at Clark Canyon when rap-bolting a climb that shares the same start as an older ground-up trad runout route, Alan (and friends) couldn't restrain themselves from adding bolts to the crack start of the trad route (Womb With a View). About 30 feet of protectable crack now sports a line of bolts next to it. They didn't bother to get "permission" from the first ascent party either.
Trad climbers -- retire your racks. They won't be of much use someday.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Sep 20, 2005 - 03:04pm PT
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I wonder if this chopping of bolts that have been in since 1990 will lead to more 'ethical cleansing' of routes. It's like a new history game, where we have to track down the original bolt count and go chop offending 17 year old retrobolts. Sweet!
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arete
Trad climber
Estes Park, Colorado
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Sep 20, 2005 - 03:09pm PT
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'ethical cleansing'
Nice! What we need is a good civil war in the climbing community. All the carnage will cut down on crag overuse and once a totalitarian regime is installed, we won't have any more of these time wasting democratic debates.
And while we're at it, lets get rid of all these people posting silly commments on websites.
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dodangler
Trad climber
truckee
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 20, 2005 - 03:19pm PT
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Arete- my point is not that the bolts are there why remove them, my point is if permission was had why remove them. And if your getting rid of your rack, I'm in the market for some new school BD camelots on the cheap. I'm still sporting the old double wire post models. Is that old stool or what?
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Apocalypse Now
climber
Up the river.
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Sep 20, 2005 - 03:21pm PT
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Some day you will return and feel a little bolder, and go for it. And joy will fill your heart. For now...suck it up.
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arete
Trad climber
Estes Park, Colorado
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Sep 20, 2005 - 03:24pm PT
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Sounds like permission was had second hand at best. Next it will be "Well I heard from a guy who knows a guy who overheard a guy say...."
dodangler -- I think I will keep my trad rack for the time being. It still seems to be getting abused on a regular basis. I too have BD's of all vintages and a collection of old junk you wouldn't believe. You wouldn't even want most of it on your rack.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Sep 20, 2005 - 03:34pm PT
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Reading the above quote from rocknroll on the RC.com thread suggests to me that although Vern was OK with the idea of adding bolts, he was unhappy about not being consulted, and ultimately with the way it was done. That amounts to another "no" vote in addition to Higgins. Higgins had a letter published in Climbing bemoaning the rebolting of this route an issue or three back, so there's no doubt where he stood. I don't need any more to find that _in this case_ removing the added bolts is a good thing. Has Vern said otherwise?
If the job hadn't been botched, and Vern had approved of the retrobolting, I wouldn't be so sure. I think these decisions have to be on a case by case basis, and with maximum deference to the FA party. Otherwise we get bolt wars.
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A Dzzl
Trad climber
Praha, Czech Republic
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Sep 20, 2005 - 04:15pm PT
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You guys are all weak sauce. Get with soft protection or die trying. Then your balls will hang around your knees like the knots on my harness. Vy jste jen žarliví Děvkí.
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John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
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Sep 20, 2005 - 04:40pm PT
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dodangler said: “Some other party went for it and I'm cracking a beer now in their honor, but a ground fall potential like that just does not appeal to me.”
If it doesn't appeal, you're not ready for this route. And if the new bolts had still been there, this route would have required an asterisk by it on your tick list: * Post-retrobolting :-(
Why isn’t Shipoopi as coveted as Bachar-Yerian? It’s close by, very similar climbing, a little harder even. Obviously it’s because it takes way bigger balls to lead B-Y. If Bachar had stopped to drill 12 bolts on the .11a pitch instead of three, you don’t think it would be known around the world do you?
I did a couple a routes on the West Face of DAFF recently. Chvchichaschtli and Fool’s Gold. I got way more satisfaction from Fool’s Gold than the other much harder one. Chv has a hard move at a bolt near the end of second pitch. NBD. Fool’s Gold has a psychological crux that’s only 5.8, the run out to the second or third bolt above a big patch of polish, that I’ll never forget. It’s not just the ability to make the moves that makes the game so much fun.
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