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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Completely lame and useless post inserted here to bust this thread out of its 2100's doldrums.
Not that it should be bumped, but I logged in to read the past few posts and haven't wasted enough precious time yet so I pressed "reply"
and now I'm ashamed.
But I'm wishing you all a great season anyway
PEace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I might as well snag 2200 while I'm at it.
I'M KING FOR A MOMENT!
Turn the page, nothing more to see here
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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And now for a diversion on bolt placement from far away and long ago, specifically “Dresden” by Steve Roper, in Best of Ascent and originally from Ascent, 1974:
“ Dresden climbing often consists of short but desperate class 4 pitches. Class 4 as in 5.7 through 5.11… the only form of protection (outside of infrequent horns and holes) is the bolt. Each ring (bolts over half inch in diameter and placed about five inches into the rock with huge rings attached) is a belay station, often a hanging station, for the rings are installed not so much near ledges as just before hard moves. Therefore, it can be seen that the hard moves are reasonably well protected. Sometimes the pitches are less than thirty feet in length and rarely are they more than fifty feet.
I recall once approaching a ring, relaxing as it got closer. I became horrified to find that I couldn’t let go to clip in. I really couldn’t let go. Briefly I thought of continuing, but the moves above definitely appeared to justify the ring. Finally I balanced and leaned and cavorted about and lunged for the mother. As I sat in my belay seat it came to me that it would have been impossible for anyone to have placed the thing while leading. Fritz (Wiessner) was watching from a nearby parapet, so I asked him about this seeming paradox. In fact, I opened my mouth too quickly, as usual, and stated in unequivocal terms that it was pretty low-class to place bolts on rappel. ‘No, no, no!’ he shouted instantly, ‘We don’t do that, it was placed on the lead.’ ‘But, Fritz, I couldn’t let go to clip in. No one could let go with both hands, for Christ’s sake, it’s vertical.’
The shouting match didn’t resolve itself at the time, but later in the beer parlor it turned out that these amazing chaps really had put them in on the lead, drilling the holes by hand – no hammers were used. The rock is fairly soft and a strong person can cling onto pinch holds while the drill is turned with the other hand. Upon getting tired, the driller will climb down to a resting stance. Sometimes the work is so strenuous that he must come back day after day to work on the hole. When the drill gets far enough into the rock he will rest in a seat sling from the drill itself. But after such a rest, which one gathers is not terribly long, it’s off the seat, back to pinch holds and more grinding away.”
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Midnite is approaching....
Rosemarys coffee is still kicking hard....
Home safe with kids in bed....
Sean sorry I had to bail....
Climbed some rock yesterday.....
Climbing is fun....
I remember....
F#ck here I am reading and then posting WTF....
Guess this is fun too...
F-ing SuperTopo....
B................................................
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ec
climber
ca
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Thx for posting that Tom. I remember reading the original story as a fledgling climber. Those guys were the epitome of Trad. It was an inspiration for me to not 'puss-out' at a crappy drill stance. Equally amazing was that difficult cracks were virtually done protection-less. Now, that's a desire to climb!
 ec
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Fat wrote: Somehow, I think LongAgo has once again supported the no rap bolt position.
By using a country that suppressed any type of human independence...funny!
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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In the Elbsandsteingebirge (aka Dresden), they also allowed shoulder stands. So maybe that is how that ringbolt was placed.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Fatty wrote
"Bad form to hog positive round number posting karma. "
Since I have a girlfriend, you can hog the positive round numbers from now on fatty!
Post on...
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jstan
climber
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The climbers of Dresden can indeed be held personally responsible for the actions of their government by those Americans who also hold themselves personally responsible for the actions of our government.
I suspect that is a fairly small group.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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John...you missed my point.
Also a little bio about the man who started the "rules" in Dresden.
Dr. Rudolf Fehrmann was an attorney. Unfortunately, he fell under the spell of the National Socialist Party and became an early member of that organization. He did manage, in the 1930s, to use his Party influence to remove unnecessary restrictions to climbing in the Elbsandstein area. He served as a military judge during World War II, and was captured and sent to an internment camp in East Germany (Camp Five-Oaks near Brandenburg), where he died of "natural causes" - awaiting trial as a suspected war criminal - in March of 1948, at the age of 63.
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Kimmage
Boulder climber
Mammoth Lakes
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To anyone who has been ok with Sean and Doug putting up this route, i commend you because you obviously have not forgotten what climbing was all about.
However, to those who are so furious with him rap bolting a big wall...what the hell is the matter with you? Are you going to be against Ron Kauk as well?! for those who know Sean, they know that he loves to climb and thats all. why the hell does it even matter which bolts go into which rocks? Back in the day, no one would have really given a sh#t because everyone was a care free hippie. I've noticed the people who are knocking him are all from areas like San Fran and So Cal. My advise to you is to stay where you are. In the city. You are all Yuppies who only care about legal crap. If you;re climbing, you're climbing and that's that. Sean has done more in his life than half of you in here so if yu want something done your way, go do it yourself and stop doggin on people who bust their asses to make a great route. And by the way, Sean is a very respected climber around Yosemite and El Portal and has always out up glorious routes that no one ever thought could be done. Maybe you should accomplish something great before you talk sh#t on the internet about MY UNCLE!
Peace and Love,
Kimmage
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Kimmage
Boulder climber
Mammoth Lakes
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Hey BLD!!!! Hi uncle Blair! Can you believe what some of these people are saying?
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tradcragrat
Trad climber
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Kimmage,
There are some heavy hittin dudes who fall on the other side of the argument. Just an observation to be aware of. Instead of personal insults maybe you should try to figure out where they are coming from in their opinion.
Peace
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Broken
climber
Texas
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Kimmage wrote: "To anyone who has been ok with Sean and Doug putting up this route, i commend you because you obviously have not forgotten what climbing was all about."
So Kimmage...what is climbing "all about"?
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ec
climber
ca
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Kimmage,
Careful, 'cause you have no idea 'where we all come from' so, stay in whatever place your at!
ec
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Bob D writes:
"Dr. Rudolf Fehrmann was an attorney. Unfortunately, he fell under the spell of the National Socialist Party and became an early member of that organization. He did manage, in the 1930s, to use his Party influence to remove unnecessary restrictions to climbing in the Elbsandstein area. He served as a military judge during World War II, and was captured and sent to an internment camp in East Germany (Camp Five-Oaks near Brandenburg), where he died of "natural causes" - awaiting trial as a suspected war criminal - in March of 1948, at the age of 63."
Fehrmann was a Nazi, and indeed, the German-Austrian Alpine Club became semi-officially anti-Semitic in the early 1920s and many of its members were Nazi sympathizers, Nazis, or worse. But you can't map politics quite that easily onto attitudes toward technology and rock climbing.
The Mauerhakenstreit of 1911 was the first round of the bolt wars. It featured vicious battles in the mags and crags between purists who denounced the use of "artificial aids" (i.e., pitons and bolts) and those who favored them. Virtually all of the arguments and attitudes we've seen in this thread reprise stuff said in the debate back then. And Nazis and Fascists showed up on both sides of the debate.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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The biography of Oliver Perry-Smith in the 1964 AAJ has a short explanation of Fehrmann's thoughts about rules and avoiding the use of aid, plus a cool list of routes Fehrmann did with Perry-Smith in 1905-09:
"As technique advanced, Rudolf Fehrmann advocated undertaking
climbs by “Great Lines” (routes laid out in the most direct way, tackling
great difficulties; hence, the ideal, most beautiful line), which present
the uppermost total performance in route finding, agility, technique,
strength, endurance and, particularly, daring. He defined the ultimate
objective of friction climbing as the art of overcoming steeply inclined
steps and holds which are not sharply edged (i.e. rounded downwards)
and this also at great height, with poor or limited possibility of belaying.
Fehrmann was a wonderful climber and much of Perry-Smith’s success
was due to his inspiration and guidance, Fehrmann realized early that, in
order to preserve climbing in Saxon Switzerland unspoiled, the use of
artificial aid had to be prevented. He was the brain and leader of the
early climbers and was able to convince them by lectures and writing that
once strict rules were broken there would be no end to it, and the beautiful
towers and pinnacles would lose much of their natural charm and
challenge, Many young experts have come out of the area and, with little
other training, tackled important problems of the Dolomites and northern
Kalkalpen in the most astonishing way. After a season or two of Alpine
rock climbing they have done well in the snow and ice of the Western
Alps and Himalayas (Nanga Parbat, 1961). One can say that much of
what they accomplished was based on the tradition of Fehrmann and
Perry-Smith."
http://www.americanalpineclub.org/AAJO/pdfs/1964/99_Thorington_PerrySmith_aaj1964.pdf
(be sure to check out the photos on p.24-29 of climbing radical runout towers and cracks, back as early as 1906)
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Yeah, Fehrmann and the school who opposed pitons dominated the scene in Elbsandstein and did important climbs in the Dolomites and elsewhere. But those climbs grew dramatically fewer after the War.
Most of the most important climbs in the western and central Alps in the '20s and '30s occurred specifically because of technical advances in pitoncraft. The Bavarian and Tirolians were the most active: The tension traverse, aid climbing with stirrups, the Tirolian traverse, and pitons for protection all took off in those years despite the opposition of folks like Fehrmann. Emilio Comici's ascent on Cima Grande, most of Pierre Allain's great triumphs in the French Alps, and notoriously the 1938 ascent of the Eigerwand, all were seen as evidence that the "moderns" had won the debate.
Places like Elbsandstein and Great Britain, that refused to adopt pitons and/or bolts for protection as well as aid, languished in the interwar years. And many of the best climbers to come out of the Dresden area, like Wiessner, did eventually adopt the use of pitons if sparingly.
That doesn't meant that the "moderns" were right, and "purists" like Paul Preuss (who opposed even rappelling as artificial aid)were wrong, but if we are going to measure success by most difficult climbs, then Elbsandstein lost out to the Munich School.
I don't think we can draw an easy moral from this for the SFHD. Except that we are repeating many of the original arguments in a new context.
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BLD
climber
excramento,CA
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Hi Kim!
Great to see you here on SuperTopo. There definitely has been some s#it talking here and some posters have drifted off topic into the personal crap. A number of times I have wished I could reach through my computer and just punch some a$$hole in the throat. I'm glad it doesnt work that way. Just remember a good argument can be healthy and productive. I have read every single word on this thread and thrown in my 2 cents here and there. There has been a wide range of people that have posted here. From the non-climber to the 5.easy weekender and all the way to the worlds greatest climbers. Hopefully some good will come from all this. Its been great to sit back and watch or read as this roller-coaster goes through the motions. Sean is a great climber and a great person; nobody can change that with written words.
Miss you Kim!
Uncle Blair.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Klk wrote: I don't think we can draw an easy moral from this for the SFHD. Except that we are repeating many of the original arguments in a new context.
I agree.
Another weird take on this. Fehrmann had a strong personal climbing style and is admired for it..even through he was a terrible human being...Sean and Doug are kind human beings, have contributed greatly to climbing, their friends and families and are being judge by a supposed taint of a climbing style...WTF!
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