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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 12, 2009 - 11:45pm PT
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Norton- "If something is in me that is called religious than it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it".
That is a profound and remarkable statement coming even from Albert because it is exactly what God states, I believe somewhere in Romans.
The perfect structural design incumbent in the universe, from the cellular to the stellar, the integral relationship of it all. Yes "the structure of the world".
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 12, 2009 - 11:52pm PT
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t*r!
Whatever happened to 'dirtbag'?
Really none of my business, just wanted to let you know that I caught that post late last night and listened to "Total Eclipse of the Heart" about five times last night before I fell asleep.
Then you deleted the post.
Peace.
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MH2
climber
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Nov 13, 2009 - 12:10am PT
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From my seat here in the stands I see Ed keep moving the ball downfield. The rest of the action is difficult to make out.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 13, 2009 - 12:17am PT
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"The space that you occupy is filled with dark energy, 70% of it or so, and 25% with dark matter, we only fill 5% (in round figures)... yet the effect of those forms of matter are so subtle you don't actually perceive them."
Funny eh, that the vast majority of what science believes composes the universe is stuff (and semi-stuff) that we hardly know Jack about.
Knowing what you know is smart. Knowing what you don't know is wisdom
Peace
Karl
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, Ca.
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Nov 13, 2009 - 12:22am PT
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Funny eh, that the vast majority of what science believes composes the universe is stuff (and semi-stuff) that we hardly know Jack about.
Knowing what you know is smart. Knowing what you don't know is wisdom
F*#k I hate agreeing with the wisdom of Baba....
At least Ed admits the unknown too. I respect that.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 13, 2009 - 12:42am PT
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Ed!
Baba!
Norton!
Three Wise Men!
Bluey, I included Norton because I believe he admitted the unknown!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Nov 13, 2009 - 12:57am PT
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Jesus; Beloved,
Ephesians 1:6, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
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TripL7
Trad climber
'dago'
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Nov 13, 2009 - 01:53am PT
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Gobee!
Thanks, I definately consider myself happy and secure.
I am reading "Standing Strong" by John MacArthur. And try and watch his GTY(Grace To You) a few times a week.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Nov 13, 2009 - 01:54am PT
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So if we all agree that the dark matter and dark energy are "God", or at least what some humans perceive as "God", then that would tidy up a whole bunch of loose ends. This big thing out there that we don't really understand, that we can't really exchange information with, and which has unknown effects on us.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 13, 2009 - 01:56am PT
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Jesus Christ is the spiritual master of the whole world. Christianity has claimed him as their own.
All bonafide spiritual disciplines honor him as ever liberated eternal soul.
He can never be cut into pieces by any weapon, nor can be burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.
He does not belong to the material world. He is above material action and reaction.
The foolish rascals try in every way dishonor this great soul. Even if they believe he's just an ordinary man they still must admit he was of a very high standard for a human being.
Only an envious snake who "sees" otherwise would act so negative and defile his image.
If one would deface their sacred climbing rocks and mountains they would scream bloody murder immediately and come to defense, yet they have no problem defacing and defiling his transcendental image.
Materialist take great pride in honoring great men and women, their children to defend any negative action against them.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Nov 13, 2009 - 02:02am PT
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Jesus does not belong to the material world. He is above material action and reaction. You see? Even Werner agrees: Jesus = dark energy/matter. Just like Ed was explaining.
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WBraun
climber
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Nov 13, 2009 - 02:06am PT
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Do not ever try and put words into my mouth .....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Nov 13, 2009 - 11:00am PT
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I just found a really interesting website that should be interesting to both science and religion factions since it contains arguments for and against a religious interpretation for all the brain research described = plus it has a cool interactive chart of the human brain.
It's based on a PBS special and a book that's just been published called, Fingerprints of God: The Search for the Science of Spirituality.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=110997741
It also shows how two diametrically opposing factions can have irreconcilable differences without insulting each other!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 13, 2009 - 11:13am PT
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hopefully I didn't leave the impression that we cannot know what dark energy and dark matter are, since they do interact materially we are busy doing experiments and making observations characterizing the stuff.... and looking for explanations as to how this stuff fits into our known explanations of the universe.
Dark matter may be axion-like, as I briefly explained above. Axions easily fit into our current theories of particle physics. They have not been observed in the laboratory, and there are constraints on their mass and coupling which might fit the dark matter parameters. Other candidates, Weakly Interacting Massive Particles (aka WIMPs) belong to a class of particles ruled by "supersymmetric" theories which we believe we're on the verge of seeing; the restarting LHC (beams plan to circulate Nov 21&22) is a hopeful frontier in which they may be found. If we understand the constraints of supersymmetry it will greatly aid in our search for dark matter WIMPs.
Problematic is the issue of Dark Energy. In some ways it was anticipated by Einstein in his 1915 paper on General Relativity. He included a term dubbed the "Cosmological Constant" which was required to keep the universe from gravitational collapse. Einstein was trying to preserve the idea that the universe was static and eternal. Other cosmologies were proposed which included "big bang" cosmologies... eventually Einstein remarked that the cosmological constant was his "biggest blunder." The cosmological constant acts with negative pressure.
In 1989 Steven Weinberg wrote a paper in Review of Modern Physics 61, 1-23 entitled "The cosmological constant problem" in which he attempted to calculate the constant from our current understanding of particle physics. His number was 56 orders of magnitude larger than expected. This certainly points the way to "more physics" between our current understanding and the explanation. The observed "dark energy" effect is still much smaller than what would be expected by our current theories.
The observations of far away Type I supernova (used as "standard candles") show that the expansion of the universe is increasing. Modern cosmologies have us transitioning from a matter dominated universe to a dark energy dominated universe, those far away SNs are earlier in time...
Resolving the "dark energy" problem is a major focus of high energy physics, cosmology and astrophysics. Many next generation land based observatories will be built in part to explore these issues, LSST (Large Synoptic Survey Telescope) the TMT (Thirty Meter Telescope), etc. There are also space based telescopes such as would ride on the JDEM (Joint Dark Energy Mission) specifically to observe and study dark energy in the universe.
Theorists are busy trying to understand just what the dark energy could be... the cosmological constant originates as the vacuum energy, but it is only one possibility, Weinberg surveyed the possibilities in the above mentioned paper.
so for the moment we have not found the need to invoke supernatural explanations for either dark energy or dark matter
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2009 - 11:22am PT
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TripL writes:
"Bluey, I included Norton because I believe he admitted the unknown!"
Trip, have no clue where you got that.
IF you are suggesting that because I personally "admit" that there
are many, many, things that humans don't "know" or never will, that I
am somehow open to the idea of a "god", or "guy in the sky", or ANY
concept of a "creator", well then you are flat WRONG.
I am not open to that at all.
GOOD MORNING!
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C. Small wall climber.
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Nov 13, 2009 - 12:33pm PT
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The Darwin "Viva la Evolucion" tee shirts seem to be available if you get a one year subscription to "Science", the AAAS magazine. Also from a variety of on-line suppliers, e.g. Cafe Press.
Jan posted a photo upthread of what they look like, although apparently more subdued colours than red are available. Any, it is the 200th anniversary of Charles' birthday.
Karl Marx originally wanted to dedicate Das Kapital to Charles Darwin, believing that his and Engels' "theories" were based in part on that of evolution. Darwin politely declined the "honour".
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nov 13, 2009 - 12:44pm PT
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What science has generally failed to anticipate, and still fails to anticipate to some degree, are the subtler and finer dimensions beyond what they have yet begun to comprehend.
Thus, Atoms were once thought to be the smallest, indivisible units in the cosmos.
Now science has awareness of, and experimental evidence of, finer and more etherial components of our reality. I'm just saying that the trend of continued discovery is likely to continue for a long, long time. What will we know when our knowledge has "evolved" 100,000 more years? How long has science really been at it's explorations? Less than 2000 years is not long.
There is really no way of knowing that underlying the most subtle energetic foundations of our reality isn't an even finer dimension, and a finer dimension beyond that. Somewhere at the essence may be Spirit.
I'd be even more critical of creationists who insist on a gross interpretation of scripture that makes God look like a crude baby in a mud puddle. An infinite intelligence need not create simplistically and it's plain that 3000 years ago, humanity didn't have the tools or need to grasp a sophisticated explanation of creation, even if God were to inspire one.
Peace
Karl
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midarockjock
climber
USA
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Nov 13, 2009 - 12:54pm PT
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Werner
"Jesus Christ is the spiritual master of the whole world. Christianity has claimed him as their own."
Have you ever communicated in a spirtual sense from a distance with a live
entity, and had them later verify what's considered today as a connectionless
communication?
Btw,
Thank you. I asked due somethings you wrote in the past. Iv'e thought some
more about it, and I accept that he was considered a god.
Dr. F.
"my Physics books, they were written before 2008"
Hold on to them, some of the modern day designs are goofy and unacceptable
by the elders at NASA, DoD and the DoD components.
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dave goodwin
climber
carson city, nv
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Nov 13, 2009 - 01:02pm PT
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777-
so if dinosaurs lived until the great flood, why didn't Noah give them a place on the ark? Was god not happy with his creation of the "leviathans" and therefore let them die off?
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