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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Upon serious reflection, the question emerges as to whether the Christian church has a message for OWS or whether the movement has a message for us. Of course the answer is “yes” and “yes.” Occupy Wall Street’s message to the church is, “If you were doing your job we wouldn’t be necessary.” The message of the church to OWS is, “There is an ally in the liberal progressive Christian community, and not all Christians are on the right.”
OWS pushes us to re-examine our fundamental understandings of Christianity to discover what our role is in this historic moment. When it comes to greed the Christian message should be pretty clear across the board. Jesus quite clearly said, “Blessed are the poor”—not the rich.
Good stuff, war. I particularly like your statement of ows to the Christian church, although I suspect we may interpret "doing your job" differently. I have opined on these pages before that the deeply flawed welfare system we have is a direct result of the failure of the church to take care of the poor. Instead of compassionate, loving care that leads both to spiritual and monetary richness, we have an inadequate materialistic system that merely impoverishes and perpetuates that poverty -- often moral as well as monetary.
Your last quote, however, misses a key part of the quote: "Blessed are the poor in spirit." While Jesus had plenty of frightening things to say to the rich (e.g. it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven."), He never took the approach of the "protest pastors," whose theology seems to be "make someone else do it." Jesus had rather harsh things to say about that, in fact.
To me, the moral bankruptcy of the Christian right is that they seem to want to impose external conformity, and fault-finding in others, in place of righteousness, contrition and compassion. The moral bankruptcy of the Christian left is that they place heavy burdens on others, but not on themselves. When the crowd was hungry, Jesus told the disciples, "You give them something to eat." He never said "You tell the rich to give them something to eat."
Concentrating on what the rich should do is simply another side of the same die (it has more sides than a coin) that the right plays when they comment on, say, sexual morality or the lack thereof, or tell the poor to "get a job" but do nothing to help them. Both responses are hypocritical -- and Jesus used His harshest criticism on hypocrites.
John
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Gary
climber
That Long Black Cloud Is Coming Down
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From bookworm's link:
The starting salary as a junior analyst is near minimum wage.
What a deal.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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The idea is to impress your employers, and work your way up to Senior Analyst.
Nobody starts at the top.
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Gary
climber
That Long Black Cloud Is Coming Down
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They should get a nine year old kid to do that job.
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Gary
climber
That Long Black Cloud Is Coming Down
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Another reason to have those kids picking cotton at six.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Huntsman will come back from the dead and save the Republican Party.
And then will lose to Obama in an electoral landslide
make it $15,000
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Gary
climber
That Long Black Cloud Is Coming Down
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And, that's not what Newt meant.
Then you tell us what Newt meant when he said current child labor laws are stupid.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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The current child labor laws are stupid.
Gotta give it to Gingrich on that one.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Chaz, just to help ME out, do you have a link to the federal child labor laws?
I want to be as knowledgable and up on them as you are.
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Gary
climber
That Long Black Cloud Is Coming Down
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The current child labor laws are stupid.
How?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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So if we thought about what Jesus would do, He would do the only thing possible, raise taxes on the rich, and redistribute the wealth back the people it was stolen from, the middle class.
You don't know your Bible well enough. He would create what people needed and have his disciples distribute it.
I do agree that in the absence of effective church action to alleviate the plight of the needy, we need government action to take care of the needy. Sinful people that we are, there would be too many freeloaders relying on others to do the work.
And yes, Jesus would be quite harsh on those who stole from others in the name of God. In addition, the entire Bible -- both Old and New Testaments, is very severe in its denunciation of those who exploint the poor.
I question, however, whether "the rich" are really the only ones doing that. If I were cynical (as I often am), I would point out that there are entire industries whose existence depends on keeping the needy down. In a way, it's like Nathaniel Hawthore's writing. Hawthorne was against sin, but without sin's existence, he'd have nothing to write about (with apologies to Richard Armour in American Lit Re-Lit.
John
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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hey dickless,
"Jingy,
You don't know sh#t about anything:"
 I thought this was a given. It certainly has bn proved over and over again on this site. Which begs he question "Why do you give a sh#t? Why is it so important for you and your pansy-posse of thoughtless twits point out how uninformed,ignorant or just plain fatard-stupid I am.... Seems like a giant waste of your time. You may be losing. After all you are a big time mover and shaker (even after you've sat down) with all the top brass of the right wing.... I'm just a lib loser socialist/marcist pig....
Tax the rich scum.
The problem in science education begins in elementary school, according to Wim Wiewel, Portland State University's president.
"We're not getting enough kids with the right math and science skills to even get in the pipeline," Wiewel said. "You see that reflected in engineering schools filling their slots with a lot of foreign students."
Indeed, 48 percent of PSU's engineering and computer science students aren't U.S. citizens.
http://www.oregonlive.com/silicon-forest/index.ssf/2011/08/academics_scientists_and_intels_ceo_convene_at_por.html"
(you point this out, and you fail to mention how incorrect I was when I said that republicons want to cut spending on education... that's because I am correct, right?)
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Just because this thread has been stuck for over 18 hours
Triumph The Insult Comic Dog at OWS
Especially starting at minute 8:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-253uBJap8
This blatantly political sculpture of the Bull gives a one sided perspective of "The Markets".
Someone needs to commission a new sculpture directly facing the Bull(shizz): a Grizzly on his hind legs with claws and teeth bared.
To illustrate the tension and repeat cycles between Boom and Bust.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I didn't say the rich did anything,
the tax code is the problem, not the rich
Some (a select few) of the rich have influenced the tax code, which is the source of the problem
You mean the tax code under which "the rich" pay the overwhelming majority of federal taxes, Dr. F? That's how they're robbing the poor? Pretty clever of them to disguise it like that!
'I question, however, whether "the rich" are really the only ones doing that.'
then you need to shut the f*#k up,
Yes, war, that dissent stuff needs to be suppressed. Questioners need to keep quiet.
John
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Jingy
climber
Somewhere out there
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http://www.politicususa.com/en/ows-everywhere
Instead of Going Away Occupy Wall Street Will Be Occupying Everywhere
When OWS first started, the corporate media ignored it hoping it would just go away. When that didn’t work, the 1% turned to propaganda. First they mocked the occupy movement describing them as lazy kids who don’t know how the world functions. Occupy got stronger. The propaganda got uglier, but was discredited. OWS still gained popularity, surpassing the 1% astroturfing Tea Party.
That’s when the 1%’s minions and supporters turned to creative applications of the law, while overlooking legal niceties like the first amendment. Property was seized. Scott Olsen and Dorli Rainey became national symbols of the violence that Occupy protesters endured.
Olsen survived two tours of Iraq, only to be seriously injured, when a tear gas cannister hit him in the head, while peacefully protesting in Oakland, California. He is still recovering from the injuries he sustained and he is still an Occupy supporter. In a recent, on the Ed Show, Olsen explains why he continues to support the Occupy Movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NftnCk87Qes
Eighty four year old Dorli Rainey was pepper sprayed in Seattle. During an interview with Keith Olbermann, Rainey compared the media situation in the U.S. today with her experiences while growing up in Nazi Germany:
“I see the same thing happening here. We have really no more free media that will bring you the issues instead of just the soft fluff entertainment.”
At this point, I would like to restate an important observation by Jason Easley in a recent post:
Police departments by definition are supposed to keep the peace, but in the hands corrupt, terrified, or weak politicians, the mission to keep the peace has morphed into a violent suppression of speech. Not all police officers and police departments have engaged in this activity, but those who do are disgracing an entire profession and soiling the reputation of law enforcement.
Despite the best propaganda that money can buy and despite the efforts to intimidate and brutalize, the protests continue.
There are several events planned for this month. Here are just a few examples.
Today (December 4th) is occupy farms day in New York City. There will be a march between 2:00 p.m. and 6:00 p.m. For more information, go here.
December 6th is occupy our homes day. Salon’s Peter Rothberg describes the goal of this action.
Hopes are riding high that the day can galvanize a new frontier for the occupy movement: the liberation of vacant bank-owned homes for those in need.
The new Occupy Our Homes movement also aims to shed light on the housing and mortgage crisis which precipitated the great recession in 2008. Activists say that the Obama Administration’s efforts to help homeowners with “underwater” properties is woefully inadequate and drastic action is needed to prevent more human suffering from this persistent recession.
On December 12, the occupy movement is planning to shut down the west coast ports.
The details can be seen in the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGqncu3wlEI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.politicususa.com%2Fen%2Fows-everywhere&feature=player_embedded
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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I know many on ST are sad, but this is a failed revolution. The dinosaur speaks again.
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CrackAddict
Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
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Occupying everything but jobs:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/occupy-movement-taunts-law-home-183142437.html
Sorry, but if you have no equity on your home and you haven't made any payments, you have no right to stay in it. Read the papers you signed.
Banks (and pension funds, etc.) absorbed virtually all the losses of the housing market crash, and continue to do so. How many people do you know who are upside down on their homes by more then $30K who have not gotten some sort of modification, write down, short sale, or simply walked away? This is part of the reason the housing market crash has been more damaging to the economy than the tech crash, in which private investors absorbed the losses.
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CrackAddict
Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
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in the last days it amounted to banks hiring particulary unscupulous loan agents to canvas skid row handing out homeloans to anyone whos hands was stead enough to sign a loan document
these banks turned around and added the full value of 30 years of such loans profits to their accounts then went begging to the government for the payout difference between what the drunkin homie payed on the morgage and what they would have earned had same drunkin homie made 30 years of monthly payments
There is a grain of truth to this, but the problem is not solved by nuking banks. The problem comes from the moral hazard created by government sponsored securitization. Most of these loans were either bought or insured by Fannie/Freddie. There would have been no housing bubble without them. Fannie and Freddie insured over 50% of the loans made in the boom years, and purchased more subprime than any other company (including Countrywide). The market for subprime came almost entirely from artificially low interest rates pushed down by the Fed, which forced investors to move to risky assets for yield.
The notion that poor people were "taken advantage of" is silly though. I knew hundreds of people who bought homes at that time, most of them lied on apps, put nothing down, etc. just to get into the market. "Poor people" got zero down loans. They gambled and lost, but what did they lose? Nothing, and most of them got years of free rent in the deal. I also knew many people in the mortgage industry - in general, they all thought they were making money for everyone. I was ridiculed for believing the market would crash. Everybody thought they were going to be rich - that is how a bubble works.
Where laws were broken, people should be prosecuted, but aside from that we need to look at who was managing the punch bowl, the Fed and the Government. Beating down banks that are sitting on hundreds of billions of bad debt is counterproductive.
they made you all pay for the crimes they got away with exploiting the poor
The only people they exploited were taxpayers, but only because we foolishly allowed ourselves to be on the hook for the losses in the name of more homeownership. That is what needs to be reformed. Occupy D.C.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Hey DelCross this sounds like you are describing the GOP.
I think they aren't a very productive group, focused on occupation and disruption rather than viable strategies for positive change. I no longer have sympathy for them and I suspect they will lose more hearts and minds as time goes on.
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/11/2011112271316280749.html
Americans are being lied to about the deficit
Republicans want to gut social safety nets, not cut the US deficit.
Heather Digby Parton Last Modified: 22 Nov 2011 11:01
And sadly, Democrats were more than willing to go along with this lopsided demand, labouring under the bizarre illusion that they would be rewarded by the people for doing exactly what the people didn't want them to do. The only thing standing in their way was the Republicans' unreasonable refusal to consider raising any taxes at all on highly profitable corporations and the greedy 1 per cent. In the end, even that small concession to allow the Democrats to save a tiny bit of face was too much and the negotiations fell apart.
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