Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
just checking in,
looks like the discussion hasn't updated beyond the 19th century...
I'm also catching up on my Science reading, and the table of contents couldn't be farther from Largo's point than could be imagined... e.g.:
Contents 22 JUNE 2018
VOL 360, ISSUE 6395
THIS WEEK IN SCIENCE
U.S. center will fight infections with viruses
BY KELLY SERVICK
Science 22 JUN 2018 : 1280-1281
Proving ground for phage therapy will organize full clinical trials of the approach.
Neanderthal brain organoids come to life
BY JON COHEN
Science 22 JUN 2018 : 1284
Human "minibrains" with gene from our extinct relative have intriguing differences.
Until now, researchers wanting to understand the Neanderthal brain and how it differed from our own had to study a void. The best insights into the neurology of our mysterious, extinct relatives came from analyzing the shape and volume of the spaces inside their fossilized skulls.
But a recent marriage of three hot fields—ancient DNA, the genome editor CRISPR, and “organoids” built from stem cells—offers a provocative, if very preliminary, new option. At least two research teams are engineering stem cells to include Neanderthal genes and growing them into “minibrains” that reflect the influence of that ancient DNA....
Hard feelings
BY ELIZABETH BAUER
Science 22 JUN 2018 : 1306
A pair of neuroscientists finds that investigating emotions is easier done than said
...Adolphs and Anderson begin by contending that emotions are biological phenomena that cause behavioral and physiological changes in the brain and body and—in some species—subjective feelings. If emotions are a class of internal brain states expressed in measurable ways, they argue, we can study the neurobiological implementation of these states separately from subjective conscious feelings, meaning both humans and other animals are potential subjects. They go on to define, in detail, the basic properties of an emotion, including valence, scalability, persistence, automaticity, and generalization....
How did Homo sapiens evolve?
BY JULIA GALWAY-WITHAM, CHRIS STRINGER
Science 22 JUN 2018 : 1296-1298
Genetic and fossil evidence challenges current models of modern human evolution
Aberrant choice behavior in alcoholism
BY RAINER SPANAGEL
Science 22 JUN 2018 : 1298-1299
Impaired neurotransmitter clearance in the amygdala is implicated in alcoholism
More than 2 billion people worldwide regularly drink alcohol. Alcohol is a component cause of more than 200 diseases and causes ∼3.3 million deaths per year globally (1). The major disease burden comes from harmful alcohol consumption and alcohol dependence. Not everyone who regularly consumes alcohol becomes dependent: ∼15% become engaged in harmful and compulsive alcohol drinking (2). Patients suffering from alcohol dependence no longer have the freedom to choose between alternative rewards because alcohol drinking dictates what should be done next, namely, shaping activities for the next drink. On page 1321 of this issue, Augier et al. (3) demonstrate that aberrant choice behavior—that is, choosing alcohol over an alternative reward—is a key driver for the transition from controlled to compulsive alcohol use. They also provide a mechanistic understanding of this aberrant choice behavior that could lead to new treatment opportunities.
Receptor networks underpin plant immunity
BY CHIH-HANG WU, LIDA DEREVNINA, SOPHIEN KAMOUN
Science 22 JUN 2018 : 1300-1301
Plant-pathogen coevolution led to complex immune receptor networks
In vivo brain GPCR signaling elucidated by phosphoproteomics
BY JEFFREY J. LIU, KIRTI SHARMA, LUCA ZANGRANDI, CHONGGUANG CHEN, SEAN J. HUMPHREY, YI-TING CHIU, MARIANA SPETEA, LEE-YUAN LIU-CHEN, CHRISTOPH SCHWARZER, MATTHIAS MANN
Science 22 JUN 2018
High-throughput monitoring of phosphorylation helps define drug actions in the brain.
Analysis of shared heritability in common disorders of the brain
BY THE BRAINSTORM CONSORTIUMScience 22 JUN 2018
Heritability analysis demonstrates how genetic variation overlaps across psychiatric disorders and behavioral traits.
...The genetic correlation results presented here indicate that the clinical boundaries for the studied psychiatric phenotypes do not reflect distinct underlying pathogenic processes. This suggests that genetically informed analyses may provide a basis for restructuring of psychiatric nosology, consistent with twin- and family-based results. In contrast, neurological disorders show greater genetic specificity, and although it is important to emphasize that while some brain disorders are underrepresented here, our results demonstrate the limited evidence for widespread common genetic risk sharing between psychiatric and neurological disorders. However, we provide strong evidence that both psychiatric and neurological disorders show robust correlations with cognitive and personality measures, indicating avenues for follow-up studies. Further analysis is needed to evaluate whether overlapping genetic contributions to psychiatric pathology may influence treatment choices. Ultimately, such developments are promising steps toward reducing diagnostic heterogeneity and eventually improving the diagnostics and treatment of psychiatric disorders.
A molecular mechanism for choosing alcohol over an alternative reward
BY ERIC AUGIER, ESTELLE BARBIER, RUSSELL S. DULMAN, VALENTINA LICHERI, GAËLLE AUGIER, ESI DOMI, RICCARDO BARCHIESI, SEAN FARRIS, DANIEL NÄTT, R. DAYNE MAYFIELD, LOUISE ADERMARK, MARKUS HEILIG
Science 22 JUN 2018 : 1321-1326
Impaired GABA clearance within the central amygdala provides a molecular mechanism behind preferentially choosing alcohol.
A precise extragalactic test of General Relativity
BY THOMAS E. COLLETT, LINDSAY J. OLDHAM, RUSSELL J. SMITH, MATTHEW W. AUGER, KYLE B. WESTFALL, DAVID BACON, ROBERT C. NICHOL, KAREN L. MASTERS, KAZUYA KOYAMA, REMCO VAN DEN BOSCH
Science 22 JUN 2018 : 1342-1346
A nearby gravitational lens is used to test General Relativity, favoring Einstein’s theory over some alternative models.
Locally coordinated synaptic plasticity of visual cortex neurons in vivo
BY SAMI EL-BOUSTANI, JACQUE P. K. IP, VINCENT BRETON-PROVENCHER, GRAHAM W. KNOTT, HIROYUKI OKUNO, HARUHIKO BITO, MRIGANKA SUR
Science 22 JUN 2018 : 1349-1354
Arc-mediated local synaptic plasticity reorganizes responses on dendrites to mediate functional neuronal plasticity in vivo.
I didn't put all the articles in, but ones I thought pertinent to the current discussions.
This an image of a gravitational lens, and a test of General Relativity on the extragalactic scale, it passed...
|
|
yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
|
|
|
Jul 10, 2018 - 12:32am PT
|
^^^^^^^^^^
Get your models straight, Ed. We're not computers who need updates. We're more like the biological phenomena known as "living fossils" (aka "extreme survivors of a lineage") perfectly content to thrive in our niche.
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
|
Jul 10, 2018 - 05:36am PT
|
Another week here in Spoleto where the alcohol is tasty (spritz) and the sky is warm and blue and the churches proclaim transcendence on every block and all the women are so, so beautiful. When life is good it's best to sit back, relax and breathe it in.
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
|
Jul 10, 2018 - 05:43am PT
|
Right back at you DMT!
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
|
|
Jul 10, 2018 - 08:39am PT
|
DMT: I mean save in the spiritual sense, as in saved from the abyss of irrelevance and a pointless life.
Oh, ok. Well, that’s a very full idea.
Ambiguity was a core idea in my dissertation. I guess I’m a bit married to it. (Anyone who writes 400+ pages about anything probably becomes committed to an idea.) It drives my wife nuts.
Meaning requires context. Contexts, backgrounds, or conditions seem to create or foster meaning and pointedness (objectives and instrumentalism). The conversation harkens Heraclitus (and Buddhist conceptualization). What meaning is to be drawn from of ever-changing flux (impermanent contexts)? So, to Paul . . .
Paul: When life is good it's best to sit back, relax and breathe it in.
Woof.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2018 - 08:44am PT
|
we can study the neurobiological implementation of these states separately from subjective conscious feelings
--
And when you study to subjective conscious feelings, what do those tell you about the neurobiological states? And what does that tell us about Identity Theory?
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jul 10, 2018 - 09:24am PT
|
^^^^ I'm sure it seems shocking to you, as you have characterized that whole line of research as having been rejected... apparently they didn't get the memo...
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
|
|
Jul 10, 2018 - 09:26am PT
|
Largo: And when you study to subjective conscious feelings, what do those tell you about the neurobiological states?
Furthermore, how does one ascertain or characterize the states reported subjectively? One might have all sorts of metrics neurobiologically in attempt to pin-down the brain side of the equation, but what is one really talking about when one says that he or she is in a state of X (e.g., depression)? Harvard has listed something like 1700+ states of mind psychologically. Are we really clear about what sadness, anger, depression, joy, melancholy, jealousy, etc. is beyond what a 20-question Likert-scale survey tells us? I mean, if we (this group here on ST) are skeptical about reports of things like meditation, emptiness, bodhichitta, and so forth, then what makes us think that we know what we're talking about when it comes to states of mind reported with language?
It's like putting 5 gallons of water into a 3-gallon container. Won't fit. Hence, reductionism, abstractions, models, theories. We don't really know what we're talking about, but no matter. We'll take some measurements and assume away or ignore the rest. We'll call it statistical noise, anomalies, or document it with scree charts. Ugh.
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Jul 10, 2018 - 09:28am PT
|
And what does that tell us about Identity Theory?
If Identity Theory leads to this conclusion:
perhaps you could describe you understanding of how, for example, an EEG signal IS subjectivity itself, which is the inescapable conclusion to I.T.
(Largo from 6 July)
it doesn't seem worth trying to figure out.
And amen to churches, sunshine, and the freedom to relax.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2018 - 11:24am PT
|
I'm sure it seems shocking to you, as you have characterized that whole line of research as having been rejected... apparently they didn't get the memo.
-
That has never been my point. Especially recently, my evolving understanding - for whatever that's worth - is that we exist, along with every thing else - at the confluence of both the time-bound and timeless. Focusing on the time-bound/causal is the job of science and the MO of all us humans in order to make our way in the world. We need not refer to anything but the timebound to organize, function and survive. However, when we go to "explain" anything, to know why and because, we find that our explanations are in fact only descriptions derived from a ground-up or, as I call it, a digitized (causal/temporal) approach to understanding reality.
The issue of causality (however you want to describe it) is inescapably at the center of any ground-up, BitTorrent model of reality. Our predictions are based on the probability of X happening in the future, as derived from the A through Z we have observed and measured in the present, as the causal chain extends into the past.
If you delve at any depth into the causation, you will find that per the issue of mind, a physicalist approach is bound up in mechanical causation, and that this perforce leads to Identity Theory, which by most expert opinions is logically incoherent. And incoherent in a way that will new data and new experiments cannot possibly change. If you content that "you cannot know that," the onus is on you to demonstrate or provide some possible model how Identity Theory will hold once new experiments are forthcoming. Good luck with that one...
The neurobiological link you provided fits rather handily in what those in brain mapping circles call the "medical model." That is, ALL subjective experience is the direct and determined effect of neurological factors, thought to physically "cause" everything from depression to personality disorders. The implication, among others, is that psychologists, who work directly with the subjective, are working with an empty gun, since the cause of any psychological malady is strictly physical, and that work on the subjective itself has no causal effect on the physical causal links involved.
See the problem??
And sez Mike: I mean, if we (this group here on ST) are skeptical about reports of things like meditation, emptiness, bodhichitta, and so forth, then what makes us think that we know what we're talking about when it comes to states of mind reported with language?
You forgot, Mike. We "only think" there is some subjectivity different from the brain states that "cause' them. So that gives us a brain that tricks "us" into believing that we are conscious, and in that "state" (illusion) we evaluate, then label and submit to quantitative review aspects of that illusory state, which we then causually tie directly to the brain that is "producing" this wild game of charades. And who is this "us" in this scenario?
Of course this all postulates that the brain is itself conscious, separate from mind, and there's no evidence of that whatsoever.
When you play out Identity Theory to its logical conclusion we come to appreciate Nagel's words that "experience is not a causal question." It's not that some people simply don't believe this, rather they haven't reasoned the thing through, IMO. That's what they call clinging to an assumption at all costs.
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Jul 10, 2018 - 02:42pm PT
|
As a reductionist I will summarize Largo's recent ramble.
ALL subjective experience is the direct and determined effect of neurological factors
|
|
jogill
climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Jul 10, 2018 - 03:48pm PT
|
^^^ I thought that was what he was getting at. Then there is this:
" . . . as derived from the A through Z we have observed and measured in the present, as the causal chain extends into the past."
(I think Identity Theory could be tweaked somewhat to describe a correlation between subjective and physical.)
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
|
|
Jul 10, 2018 - 04:00pm PT
|
"God of the Gaps" is a term that we have visited from time to time here. It basically refers to the fact that, through time, natural phenomena that were once believed to be caused by supernatural agents were determined to be, after all, natural phenomenon. Lightening, for instance. I think that it is entirely relevant to mind.
There's just no question about it -- at this point in time, mind is not understood in the way that, say, evolution is. While noting the dissenting opinion of one mb1 (not present:), evolution is a theory that is pretty much settled science, and much of the way it works in the broadest sense is understood. Not so, mind. More than anything, I would say that science (our collective, evidence-based understanding of how the world works) does not understand why self-reflective consciousness evolved in humans. We DO know that it DID evolve and its physical manifestation is in the left hemisphere.
Just because we do not understand mind in the same way that we understand other things, I would have to surmise that any supernatural explanation for mind will likely go the same way as the, losing, other God of the Gaps arguments. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I contend that your "awareness" would fall in the supernatural category. This category would also include theism, pantheism, and ideas like karma.
|
|
jogill
climber
Colorado
|
|
|
Jul 10, 2018 - 04:28pm PT
|
"Tell me if I'm wrong, but I contend that your "awareness" would fall in the supernatural category. This category would also include theism, pantheism, and ideas like karma."
Think I'll pop some popcorn and sit back and watch.
;>)
|
|
eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
|
|
|
Jul 10, 2018 - 05:33pm PT
|
Hard not to like you, jogill!
End points: If you focus on these types of questions, you start off having to work on a harder problem than you need to.
• What happened before or what banged in the Big-Bang?
• How, exactly did life start here on earth?
• What does the first member (or first group) of a species look like?
• What does the first (or first group) look like who definitively have mind -- what were their minds like compared to ours?
• Why don't we see a particular intermediate fossil in the fossil record?
Although all of those questions are interesting and can be expected to have definitive answers at some point, it is more fruitful to focus on questions such as these:
• How does DNA-based life work?
• How are we different from chimpanzees exactly, considering our 98% match in DNA?
• Do all mammals experience cold the same way?
• What is the commonality of mammal mothers with respect to “feelings” for their children?
• How is our self-reflective consciousness different from the consciousness of a chimpanzee or dolphin or octopus?
• Are we freely-deciding agents?
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2018 - 06:46pm PT
|
Eyonekke, the God of the Gaps argument has been flogged in the Philosophy of Mind camp for a long time, and again, there are several telling points that take it off the table.
First, consciousness is not an observable phenomenon. Neither directly or indirectly. Science is an investigative tool used for sense data, stuff our awareness can latch onto as an object or phenomenon tangibly "out there," external to ourselves. Science has never been called on to "explain" the unobservable, and in fact with it's credo to keep subjectivity OUT of the equation, we can hardly hope to find what we are not looking for. This should be a rather simple concept to grasp, though a hard one to accept if your first assumption is Type A Physical Functionalism.
The second misstep is that "new data" or experiments will will resolve the Identity Theory.
The third piece of woo is that whatever we can't measure is "magic."
A final piece of woo is that mind had to be causally created - and we already know the dead end of that one.
Your list of easier, or doable questions can only get so far when you run into the harder ones. See Chalmers Easy and Hard questions.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jul 10, 2018 - 06:49pm PT
|
What happened before or what banged in the Big-Bang?
the inflatons...
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2018 - 06:51pm PT
|
What caused the hypothetical scalar field, Ed?
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jul 10, 2018 - 07:07pm PT
|
what is cause?
you're locked in a prospective that makes all action in the universe a human action...
you should get out a little.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 10, 2018 - 07:18pm PT
|
Bollocks, Ed. Physicalism IS a physical causal model, except you (or at least many) also want to merge this with a creation model, when everything "started," and that would require a fundamental property like a scaler field.
Now if you are saying that causation can only be observed and described but never explained, then we are on the same page.
Problem is, people believe linear causation IS an explanation, not just a description.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!