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jogill
climber
Colorado
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^^^
Teilhard's theory is maintained by four formal properties:
1. Humans will escape the heat death of the universe. Scientifically, this means that intelligence cannot survive.[9] He theorizes that radial energy* is non-compliant with entropy, it escapes the collapses of forces at world's end.
2. The Omega Point does not exist within the timeline of the universe, it occurs at the exact edge of the end of time. From that point, all sequence of existence is sucked into its being.
3. The Omega Point can be understood as a volume shaped as a cone in which each section taken from the base to its summit decreases until it diminishes into a final point.
4. The volume described in the Third Property must be understood as an entity with finite boundaries. (Wiki)
*Radial Energy: spiritual energy which accumulates into a higher state as time progresses.
I'm a bit surprised the Church is moving towards this kind of metaphysics.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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if Fructose really wants an alternative to myth based literal religion, he needs or someone needs, to provide an alternative.
I think people everywhere are working on this, don't you?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Yes I do at many different levels. What I am saying is that the secular humanist, atheist , highly intellectual approach is not going to work for most people.
Therefore I think what the non fundamentalist forms of religion decide to do to modernize their doctrine, will be much more important. Theories of cosmology change, but most of human nature does not. Let science have the cosmology and religion still address how to live and help your fellow human beings. That's the message I got in the various churches I have attended. Then again, I never ever would set foot in a fundamentalist church. And I don't restrict myself to Christian churches either.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 7, 2018 - 08:18pm PT
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Their contention is that the personal beliefs of secular humanism can and do, for a growing number, replace literal fundamentalist religion with a very good and viable life philosophy.
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Except most secular humanists are literalist fundamentalists as well, it's just that their altar is not religion, per se, rather data streams, information, etc. If they've studied sacred texts they interpreted them as antique physics texts, and swapped out the old myths with updates, which we all did.
Problem is, many believe that in doing so, they have understood the "narrative," when the deeper waters have nothing to do with bad science, and are something totally "other."
Have Fruity study Song of Songs, Sermon on the Mount, and build a new narrative based on that stuff, not data updates. Some sense of transcendence will always cause grief when it goes missing. But if you uplaoad reality via a kind of Bit-Torrent, step ladder of physical facts, you'll never get there.
Screwy thing is we're already there, it just takes some doing to realize it. My sense is that when this phenomenon is no longer on the horizon - not as beliefs or faith-based mental notions, but rather as a shade of experience - some people get so dislocated from their selves they start going sideways. People more enmeshed in thinking can avoid the riptide (mostly) through information, and this will be their native POV.
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WBraun
climber
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LOL fruitloops wants an alternative.
His problem is he hasn't got a clue who he really is.
Fools like him want to change the external world all while he's clueless to his own reality.
This is what blind fools do.
Try and change everything and everyone outside of themselves all while remaining completely clueless to their own selves.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Wizard, are you saying some people who have lived religious lives will be distraught without religion?
Clarity is divine.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Werner +1. Yeah, put your own oxygen mask on first. It’s not a question of self-interest as much as it relates to one’s perception and understanding. If one and one’s consciousness / awareness is a dot in an infinite universe, then saving oneself first (realizing oneself) means just about nothing. However, that appears to be a huge, hidden assumption. If one considers the incessant failure over time to be able to say not only what one is but also what anything is finally, accurately or completely, then it might give one pause. Whether you’re a rock climber, a husband, an IT project manager, or a politician, knowing yourself tends to lead to better outcomes in every way.
jogill: . . . are you saying some people who have lived religious lives will be distraught without religion?
Do you mean "a religion" or do you mean the result or the experience of a practice?
Would you be distraught without mathematics, John?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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"I think people everywhere are working on this, don't you?" -hfcs
Yes I do at many different levels.
Good. Me too.
What I am saying is that the secular humanist, atheist , highly intellectual approach is not going to work for most people.
Okay, but I don't think anyone is saying this. In fact, I think we've agreed on this point going back years and years, no?
In regards to SH, I see it working for some; second, I see it as a transitional tool, useful in this transitional time. FWIW, Sam Harris, the punching bag of a couple here, agrees. I think it was in his conversation with Douglas Murray where he stated this very plainly.
I think what the non fundamentalist forms of religion decide to do to modernize their doctrine, will be much more important.
I think this is/ will be important too. But it's worth noting: Is this not what many "moderns" have been after all along? In essence: Modernize the doctrines, align them with the facts, align them with 21st c modern understanding, discard the iron-age nonsense, and then let's move on.
I'm glad we had this century change when we did - 18 years ago. It's made it rather convenient to distinguish 20th from 21st. So, for eg...
I think people in the 20th century weren't ready to hear some things regarding belief the way people in the 21st century are. I see this as a good thing.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 8, 2018 - 09:27am PT
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But if one takes a step back, and really observes objectively, then there is no meaning in any of it. There is just observation.
You've just described Step 1 of any valid spiritual practice, IMO.
Step 2 involves stepping back from what our minds tell us is "out there."
Step 3 involves the slow (usually) disillusion of he/she who "steps back."
Step 4 bores into observing. A slow shift starts to occur, where the discrete temporal/causal objects and phenomenon in observation (our normal perceptual "figure") becomes the "ground" (background), and what was formally the ground (timeless, no-thing) becomes the figure. Eventually these merge as the imagined duality dissolves.
Think of toggling your observational lens from macro (fixed on things and phenomenon) to infinity, and making that your default position, moving in and out of intentional narrow focus/rational thought as needed.
The normal misconception per spiritual adventures is that a person is trying to replace our normal content (discrete) with "spiritual" content - meaning we are simply swapping out this data for "enlightened" data. Few realize, I imagine, that this thinking is still beholden to the temporal/digitized way our rational minds interpret reality, all else also being temporal/digitized, but without the temporal/causal ground of "objective" reality. People are right, IME, to consider this woo and magic.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Almost always expressed as "us" or "we," as if the person herself is going.
Well, let's see.
I use "we" when I AM present and part of a group of individuals. Also I use "we" when I'm thinking about we Americans (in comparison or contrast to say the Thai, for eg) sometimes even when I am NOT a part of the immediate action. Also I use "we" when I have in mind Sapiens (as opposed to them Romulans or Vulcans; or as opposed to them Canines or Cetaceans), again, in some cases, even when I’m not directly involved in whatever the subject.
This has never really been a problem, I don't think. The communications nine times out of ten is clear.
So I can tell you in re to this “we” business - when I use any of a thousand expressions containing "we" like, "I hope we get to Titan someday" I'm using it to signify our species or our descendants - we Sapiens - and in no way do I have in mind (am I contemplating) either my own individual self or any extension or what not of my own mortality.
It's cool you mentioned the Fermi Paradox. Part of that puzzle, I think as you know already, is the Frank Drake Equation which has been revisited lately from a new interesting perspective. I recently posted up about this new changed perspective too. Maybe that's why this topic was on npr?
https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2018/7/3/17522810/aliens-fermi-paradox-drake-equation
Then again, maybe I missed your underlying main point or underlying emphasis all together. If so, sorry.
But I hope we get to the stars. :)
And if we are alone, well you remember what Ellie Arroway had to say about that!
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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^^^^^^^^^^^^
Perhaps. Like most of our natural language concepts, "immortality" can take on different hues The idea that you are participating in something important that is basically good and meaningful in some lasting sense, may be a sort of intrinsic human desire (or perhaps even a basic human need). This sort of desire for "immortality" seems to go beyond any personal ambition to live forever (or any desire we have that our loved ones literally "live forever"). It may be one thing to accept the mortality and failings of ourselves and our loved ones, but I'm not sure how healthy it is to focus on the possibility that everything we do amounts to "nothing" in some universal sense. On the other hand, perhaps we can accept this joyously and still do good.
A Talking Heads fix for DMT :
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 8, 2018 - 11:31am PT
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I'm not sure how healthy it is to focus on the possibility that everything we do amounts to "nothing" in some universal sense.
In my experience there is always, and I mean always, the dance of opposites - night and day, life and death, time and timelessness, parts and the whole. Reality overcomes this duality but the vexer is we are both time (ego/body) AND timelessness (awareness, which is nothing). When we want to get to the timeless on time's terms (our rational minds), we lay down a yellow brick road of facts and figures that dead ends. That's the rub.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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21,158 21,157
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
- Jul 8, 2018 - 11:31am PT
I'm not sure how healthy it is to focus on the possibility that everything we do amounts to "nothing" in some universal sense.
In my experience there is always, and I mean always, the dance of opposites - night and day, life and death, time and timelessness, parts and the whole. Reality overcomes this duality but the vexer is we are both time (ego/body) AND timelessness (awareness, which is nothing). When we want to get to the timeless on time's terms (our rational minds), we lay down a yellow brick road of facts and figures that dead ends. That's the rub. oh I get to follow teacher,!!
yeeha!! [Click to View YouTube Video]
Large one.
you have at least laid eyes on me in the way back,
I was a teeny tiny speck, laughing at Bob Gains paunch, in '83?
That must have been what cursed me to be in my current round state.
this is possibly the most embarrassing one minute, but I'm still having fun so [Click to View YouTube Video] By way of explination,
I had originally called the video, "Tip'dToe"
I never had my right foot fused,
in the video I tip the toe of my wrecked right foot into a recess and stand up full weight on it.
Its a pleasure/pain thing.
If I sit cross-legged, my foot dislocates;
shifts off to the side; I have manually shove it back in place to stand up.
This clean'd up nice - a very soft, short climb,
a very stiff short climber on that short stuff
2,minutes:48seconds, not a bad canned strummed-out riff,
[Click to View YouTube Video]
sends of a more serious nature,
Actually impressive, all onsight - flashed everything!
This cat Came, saw & crushed what he wanted to
v7-8 the sit start seems fresh using a carved hold the location and age suggests it was chiseled by PT Barnum, or that ilk.Some insist it is prehistoric. there is extensive mounding & wall structure along the base. so a shelter rock or burial location ?
Well , flame me for adding this to this Bear Lodge Thread, ( & I expect to be lit up by a certain troll too)
1st
I am totally sympathetic, and feel that the genocide that the white man committed against the original population is a great atrocity.. .. As much as it would be nice if we could, the reversal of those crimes makes no difference, nothing we do now, good or bad, respectful or not, voluntarily or by restrictive fiat, (it) will not change history. Our collective agreeing to not climb will not be an emollient to the victims.., and the march of civilization is marred with constant lurches backwards., as we may be are experiencing,.
Please Im atree hugin' Brik wearin' granolahead from diapers. . . So I kept this rock a secret, or so I thought.. It was the last place I wanted to go. And the use of chalk, choked me up. The Skullz Rock is a short walk from a public beach, These tilted stones offer amazing bouldering/climbing at every grade, into the highest v grades.
I consider it sacred ground. It feels that way. There is significant mounding around & the remains of an ancient stacked stone wall forming a crypt like recess..surrounding the base,
the skulls' mouth is clearly the result of chiseling but, by what sort of tool, is up for debate...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Im not going to go into the cruelty that is the Astrian/Hungarian trait of shrinking & expanding at an alarming rate...
The way I look at it,
it is the price that an extended youth, came with.
So I have these climbing zones all to myself and have for a decade at least.. I can no longer pull down as the best of the lines demand, so Iwas showing "czd" other rocks and the Martins pond boulder, once painted, with the words "Sex Drugs&Rock", there is no argument about that, the year it was painted, and then an orange re-paint , are not settled , which is to my loss.
So when After I pointed out that by placing rotting limbs & wood down between once perfectly , kept , sweepable hard pack & a couple of back breakers,
who ever was responsible had caused an infestation of chiggers.
I had hoped to go to another less sacred area,
but to my surprise "czd" had a grainy black & white video of Skullz Rock.
so while the chalk and the stupid addition of a rotting not "platform for pads"? was criminal to my sensibilities.
I admitted to knowing where it was and led the way, "czd" , crushed it, Flashing every thing. Oh the desecration! sincerely, but would you look to restrict climbing at every shelter rock?
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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I'm not sure how healthy it is to focus on the possibility that everything we do amounts to "nothing" in some universal sense.
Myself, I find it comforting to think that I am not all that important in some universal sense. Otherwise, the responsibility might weigh me down.
Dingus Milktoast wrote:
> So is ou[r] little family dying out, by degrees or otherwise?
No way! I thought, until a who's who of greybeards lurched out of the cobwebs
to respond to this post. Yep, Cro Magnon may have been brainy and good-looking
but Homo Sapiens spilled his gene pool and rec.climbing is losing the battle,
too, but it was fun while it lasted.
> I honestly believe my contributions far
> outweigh my petty behaviors
Don't underrate petty behaviors.
What do you think about death?
Why do you think about death?
That's old guy stuff.
Andy Cairns
From - Sat Nov 17 14:24:39 2007
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Nafod40 wrote:
> Drank a bit too much wine and beer the night before, after going sea
> kayaking in the Hudson by West Point and having to pull my friend out
> when he capsized in high winds and heavy waves.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Internal or external?
> the right ergo to get the move going.
Always curious. Ergo-nomics? Cogito sum? Something new?
> Stepping up, I saw that my rope went down into the alcove and
> back out. Guess I should have unclipped that fixed peice first.
Always fun to hear of someone else's misery.
Thanks for the TR, Mike. I have just one quibble. I spent many days at
the Gunks so my firsthand experience makes me question your calling the
day 'unremarkable'. One of those days included Yellow Belly.
Andy Cairns
From - Sat Nov 17 14:16:41 2007
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'68, '76, '83, brennschluss...
...banana breakfast
It was a cool day in early spring but the sky was blue and the sun was
strong.
As I walked along the basalt rim above the Crooked River noise filled
the air. Rock faces in the middle distance returned beating echoes.
Locating the source wasn't easy, and when I did spot the 'copter it was
coming in fast on top of me, the scrub fanning out beneath it. The pilot
wasn't going to let a person on his landing site slow him down. He had
no time to waste. He was part of a production schedule.
Further along the clifftop a man and woman spoke into a TV camera. Their
faces were familiar from cheaper sport neighborhoods like swimming. Here
at Smith Rock they were fluffing for "Survival of the Fittest", a
contest among bargain-basement athletes: kayakers, cross-country skiers,
and climbers.
Climbing has over the years crept into the awareness of the general
public. Warren Harding started early on this with the Nose and then
finished strong with the nationally televised Dawn Wall spectacle. Jim
McCarthy appeared in Sports Illustrated circa '58. John Stannard
cooperated with Life Magazine for a story on 'the rock people' even
though he had concerns about the growing pressure on his beloved Gunks.
Today we have the huge success of Into Thin Air, and the birthday party
as an introduction to climbing.
While climbing was gaining a share of the public's attention, a
reciprocal flow of media seeped into the climbing world. Not long ago
there was no Climbing and no Rock and Ice. Today we have a 24-hr
cocktail party.
Climbers and a Sunday afternoon TV audience crossed paths at Smith Rock
in 1983, hardly noticing each other. Only a few among the audience
recognized the names Kauk, Tobin, or Bachar. The crags were never used
to define the climbing talents of this strong crew, only as a scenic
backdrop for running, jousting, and jumping into water. Despite the
appearance on TV of climbers at Smith Rock, most viewers were left none
the wiser about climbing. Par for the TV course.
On their side the Californians probably didn't foresee the way Smith
Rock local Alan Watts' reliance on bolts and 'multiple attempts' was
soon going to spread far and wide on the strength of French climbers,
5.14, and magazine hype. Well, the southerners were there to make some
money, not to debate style. Bachar gave hang-dogging a try.
The divide between old and new has been especially sharp at Smith Rock.
Jeff Thomas, author of the guide that preceded Alan Watts', was the
essential purist. He took pains to describe the style of FAs, agonized
if he had to hang on a free climb, and wished to minimize damage to the
rock and the landscape, especially the beautiful fragile desert
landscape of Smith Rock.
I thought about Jeff Thomas as I followed cameraman Bridwell's
footprints to the banks of the Crooked River. Those footprints might
last a long time according to an advisory plaque at the visitor center.
Not long enough, really.
The survivor of a pick-up partner jaunt up Cerro Torre and a
we-could-die-at-any-minute descent from the Moose's Tooth settled into
position to record the scene where contestants would zip-line into the
river from a tree on the opposite shore. A passerby recognized the
Valley legend and started to gush. When asked about current projects,
Bridwell said he didn't get to the Valley much anymore. The fan: "Oh,
what do you do?" The reply: "Alpine."
This was the day of the women's final. It began with a 300 ft rappel. I
don't know what rig they used, but it was fast. One contestant took 14
seconds to reach bottom. Her two second lead didn't last long. Her ankle
seemed to be bothering her.
Back up the dry hill they raced. Red, blue, green, or yellow bodysuits
served to distinguish them as, well, red, blue, green, or yellow. They
ran behind a formation on the ridge, then downhill to the river, swam to
the other side, hand-over-handed up a rope to the start of the zip-line,
back across the river, up Misery Ridge, across to Asterisk Pass, and
back down to the river.
The men and women of "Survival" competed separately but in similar
events. The main differences were that the TV viewing audience would
probably take more interest in the women, and the women's first place
prize money was several thousand dollars less than the men's.
I guessed that the course the women ran for their final would take me
about 2 hours. Crossing the finish first, in 45 minutes, was Lynn Hill
in red. Strength/weight had given her a big lead at the rope climb.
Second, or possibly third, in yellow, was Catherine Freer.
Andy Cairns
From - Sat Nov 17 14:16:41 2007
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Eugene Miya wrote:
> There are lots of parables for what's going on here, but I hate to say
> that despite what you may think, you guys are the ones on the losing end.
When I consider how my light is spent
Ere half my days in this dark world and wide,
And that one talent which is death to hide,
Lodged with me useless, though my soul more bent
To serve therewith my Maker, and present
My true account, lest He, returning, chide:
"Doth God exact day labour, light denied?"
I fondly ask; but Patience, to prevent
That murmur, soon replies, "God doth not need
Either man's work or His own gifts; who best
Bear His mild yoke, they serve Him best. His state
Is kingly. Thousands at his bidding speed,
And post o'er land and ocean without rest;
They also serve who only stand and wait."
Sonnet On His Blindness
John Milton
and with fondness:
http://gilleymedia.com/john/john1.htm
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zBrown
Ice climber
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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MikeL: "Would you be distraught without mathematics, John?"
As the Wizard suggests, I would probably go sideways.
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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For anyone who is interested, interviews of Stephen Hawking, his mom and Roger Penrose from the final part of the movie "A Brief History of Time" (copy and pasted from the script). This seemed to mesh with the current drift of the thread.
Hawking: Einstein once asked the question: "How much choice did God have in constructing the universe?" If my proposal that the universe has no boundary is correct he had no freedom at all to choose how the universe began. He would only have had the freedom to choose the laws the universe obeyed. This, however, may not have been all that much of a choice. There may well be only one unified theory that allows for the existence of structures as complicated as human beings who can investigate the laws of the universe and ask about the nature of God.
Penrose: I don't know how clear-cut these experiments are but there are experiments that have been done on the timing of consciousness and they seem to lead to a very odd picture which doesn't even quite make consistent sense. Whether refinement of these experiments might get rid of this kind of anomaly I'm not sure but it does look a little as though there is something very odd about consciousness and somehow almost as though the future affects the past in some way over a very tiny, limited scale, but something maybe of the order of a reasonable fraction of a second. And there's no reason to believe that one's conscious experience shouldn't be part of somebody else's at some other stage. I don't know if it's fair to say what happens after one dies but it's a plausible picture that you could be somebody else and that somebody else could be somebody that lived in the past, not in the future.
Hawking: Even if there is only one possible unified theory that is just a set of rules and equations what is it that breathes fire into the equations and makes a universe for them to describe? Why does the universe go to all the bother of existing? Is the unified theory so compelling that it brings about its own existence? Or does it need a creator? And, if so who created him?
Penrose: I think I would say that the universe has a purpose. It's not somehow just there by chance. I think it's... Yeah. So... it's... it's... Some people, I think, take the view that the universe is just there and it sort of runs and runs, and it just sort of computes and we happen somehow by accident to find ourselves in this thing. But I don't think that's a very fruitful or helpful way of looking at the universe. I think that there is something much deeper about it.
Hawking's Mom: The memories I have are very much kind of visual pictures of what Stephen was of seeing Stephen in certain situations.
He was always moving. Always. Well, hardly ever still. It was the same thing about his face and gesture which he used a great deal, I should say but it's only memory. I found some photographs recently which reminded me of the general look of everybody and I must say Stephen looked very much like he does now if one thinks of him like that. He does believe very intensely in the almost infinite possibility of the human mind. You have to find out what you can't know before you know you can't, don't you? So I don't think that thought should be restricted at all. Why shouldn't you go on thinking about the unthinkable? Somebody's got to start sometime. Think how many things were unthinkable a century ago and yet people have thought them. And often they also seemed quite unpractical. Not all the things Stephen says probably are to be taken as gospel truth. He's a searcher. He's looking for things. And sometimes he probably talks nonsense. Well, don't we all? But the point is people must think. People must go on thinking. They must try to extend the boundaries of knowledge and they don't sometimes even know where to start. You don't know where the boundaries are, do you? You don't know what your taking-off point is.
Hawking: If we do discover a complete theory of the universe it should in time be understandable in broad principle by everyone not just a few scientists. Then we shall all philosophers, scientists, and just ordinary people be able to take part in the discussion of why it is that we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason for then we would know the mind of God.
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nafod
Boulder climber
State college
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Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 14:09:13 -0800
From: "A. Cairns"
Nafod40 wrote: Oh lord...
When I read my stuff from the early 2000s now, I think of the Houseman poem:
But I was one-and-twenty,
No use to talk to me.
And I am two-and-twenty,
And oh, ’tis true, ’tis true.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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CNS evolution?
...
Look at all this nuance Michael Faraday helped to spark...
Faraday effect
Faraday cage
Faraday constant
Faraday cup
Faraday's laws of electrolysis
Faraday paradox
Faraday rotator
Faraday-efficiency effect
Faraday wave
Faraday wheel
and it's only a partial list.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Faraday
Ah, the days of the "gentleman scientist".
Recall too that that other gentleman scientist, William Whewell, suggested the terms electrode, ion, dielectric, anode, and cathode to Michael Faraday so he could better articulate his ideas and inventions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Whewell
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