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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 09:27am PT
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"It is an odd thing, because admitting that you are wrong (and I'm not saying that you are) would require a restructuring of your constructed reality, and possibly create contradictions within yourself and your life experiences."
Spencer, that would seem to be a two way street, would it not? If you are not insinuating that Coz is the one who's screwed up, why did you direct your thoughts toward him?
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 30, 2008 - 09:57am PT
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Good morning Slipknot,
Yeah, two way street indeed. We are all screwed up. It's all relative. There are no absolutes. I just directed my thoughts toward Coz because he asked. Not to me, but it sounded like he wanted to know. That's ok isn't it? He prolly already knows that chit anyway. Just thinking out loud. I was feeling sort of Baba-esque(tm). Also, I thought I made it pretty clear, especially in the quote that you re-posted, that I'm not suggesting that he is wrong...but then again, he might be. It depends on one's _ and their _. Just substitute the word "One" or "Ones" for the word "Your". Does that change things for the bettter?
Have a great day. I know I will, my wife is defending her Master's thesis later this morning. YEAH BABY! GIT-R-DUN!
*answers: evitcepsrep, slaedi
Nice image Clint. Looks SWEEEEET!
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Apr 30, 2008 - 11:09am PT
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Coz...the so called "beginning of the end" happened a long time ago as Steve stated...that so 1980's.
I gave a few examples of a routes in RMNP that created the same type of discussion and passion that GU has.
They might have been the start of something but for sure haven't been the end of the end of trad-climbing in the Park.
I saw were you stated you wanted a family...I hope that happens for you...somehow having a family (wife and children) put this rock climbing bullshit into prespective and shows what really is important.
I been married for 33 years of of the 37 years I been climbing...I also raised with my wife three children during that time. Looking back at some of the routes (r/x) I did during that time I was really irresponsible to my family and their welfare.
As to SB...you did a great job and stuck to your guns....quite impressive and hats of to you. Sean took a different path, worked hard for months to climb a really good route...hats off to him.
Let history be the judge of Sean route just as it has been the judge of SB.
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 11:26am PT
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Spencer, Fair enough.
Edit
I still pondering the assertion that everything is or should be relative. Here's a potential new thread:
Thread title: Coz is a GW Bush Christian
Post: It's obvious, but let me connect the dots in case you missed it. He (alone) believes: that society should have a basic set of guiding values, his world view is tunnel-vision built on his own experiences, entrenched in his own beliefs, unable to admit he was wrong, unwilling to consider he was wrong, internal self-condtradictions, believes Yosemite (his environment) is "hallowed granite". Hmmm, does that mean Bachar is a Bible-thumper too!!!
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Doug Robinson
Trad climber
Santa Cruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 11:54am PT
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"...admitting that you are wrong (not saying that you are)"
and
feeling with a calm certainty that you are right.
Speaking for myself, I go back and forth between, within, those poles like some quantum entity that is, yes, a particle and, certainly also, a wave.
As good an experiential repudiation as I can find, in my gut, of trying to reach an absolute conclusion about matters of ethics and style. It ain't happening. And it's no accident that the nature of bolting on rock has spawned this question, which is starting to seem damn near eternal. 2000 posts...
I am a trad. Always started with my feet on the ground. With skill and luck sometimes reached the summit. So far, always made it back down.
This time, while listening to the stone, I got a different answer. The possibilities offered by subtle combinations of holds -- pretty darn small holds -- on the South Face, couldn't even be seen from below as they wove through the, equally prominent, patches of blankness. The opportunities to protect such a tenuous line of holds in any traditional manner also seemed remote and strung out -- beyond our personal sense of acceptable danger, and beyond our sense of how dangerous a climb we would feel comfortable leaving for the future.
So this one time, responding to the stone as I found it, I went beyond my trad self. Likely I never will again.
It was not arrogance to listen to the stone and get a different answer. Listening instead of blabbing is an act of humility.
I helped to fashion a climb I'm proud of. You're welcome. Soon it will be climbed, again and again, and we will see how others find it.
I contributed to leaving behind a legacy that is less clear cut than my trad roots. This makes me nervous. Because if you want black and white answers about how to climb a rock, they damn sure aren't here in the route we made. The guidelines from this are more "maybe," more dependent on how you see the stone above you. More your responsibility to preserve the adventure that is climbing by using your head and your heart about whatever you do on whatever stone you find.
It certainly is not a license to drill blindly from the top to the bottom of any wall you meet, hoping you can climb it. That is artificial, theoretical, and arrogant. It's not listening to the stone.
Good Luck.
Be Careful.
And Peace.
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Porkchop_express
Trad climber
Gunks, NY
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Apr 30, 2008 - 11:57am PT
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Tradition is a means to an end, that end being consideration and care for the abstract ideal embodied in the tradition itself that can subsequently be passed on. It is possible for an ideal to outlive a tradition that once was its very safeguard. When people become so attached to tradition itself that they begin to see it as an end in and of itself, all their good intentions and crusading only serves to turn off would-be supporters, because they refuse to adapt—sacrificing the ability to insure that the intrinsic ideal will continue beyond their time.
Cherish tradition by sharing it and passing it along, not by keeping others out to preserve your own achievements. As a new climber myself, who really cares A LOT about preserving ethics and standards even though the many others my own age (25) could give a damn about them, it seems counter productive that many of the older “guardians” of the ethical high ground seem to sit atop their ethically correct achievements to the exclusion of many.
GU was put up with a great deal of care and consideration to the end that more people would be able to respect and appreciate the beauty and majesty of this awesome megalith. What do you pass along to coming generations if you give nothing to the future that anyone can actually connect with? I am not suggesting that this climb or any climb should be “brought down” in terms of ease to be more palatable to the average person. I am simply pointing out that safety and skill are not the same, nor should they be treated as such.
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Spencer Adkisson
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Apr 30, 2008 - 12:08pm PT
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Slippidy-doo-dah,
There is one absolute. There absolutely are bolts placed in the rock. That is a fact. Questions about right or wrong, good or bad don't have absolutes (in my flea-bitten opinion).
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Eddie
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Apr 30, 2008 - 12:19pm PT
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After all this...
Has anyone changed there mind?
Let's hear from those who have slid one way or the other on the spectrum of "chop those evil things" to "that's the coolest route ever"
pete
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 12:22pm PT
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Spencer wrote
"It is an odd thing, because admitting that you are wrong (and I'm not saying that you are) would require a restructuring of your constructed reality, and possibly create contradictions within yourself and your life experiences."
then slipknot wrote
"Spencer, that would seem to be a two way street, would it not? If you are not insinuating that Coz is the one who's screwed up, why did you direct your thoughts toward him?"
It's worth noting that, in this discussion, there are those who claim their way is the only way, and those who admit that both ways have a place.
There is a difference in anal-reality-retention between these standpoints that's worth noting.
Peace
karl
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 12:44pm PT
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"After all of this...
Has anyone changed there mind?"
All this discussion has certainly made me look at my views of FAs.
I've been solidly in the camp that you start at the bottom and climb up. But with this route, I see there can be good reasons to look at other approaches.
Nature, way back up thread, gave a good example of why rap bolting can be a good thing. Slowly, I've seen that there are indeed places where climbing from the ground just doesn't work so well.
Of course, Growing Up is different in that it could have been done without uncoiling the ropes on top. The amount of time it took the FA team to make that decision doesn't escape me. The footsteps of Doug also carry weight for me.
I honestly think that if Sean and team were allowed to power drill, things might have been different. But, given the available tools, they did what they thought was best.
I am still anti-rap bolting. The thought of it makes my skin crawl. Yet I can see this route as being one where a different viewpoint can be valid.
PS. Clint, Thank You! for that topo.
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:03pm PT
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KB
I like to hunt bald eagles by helicopter in Alaska. What do you think of that?
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SlipKnot
Social climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:28pm PT
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Karl,
Awaiting your response. What will it be? Phone a friend, Poll the Taco audience, Switch question, or take your earnings and withdraw from the thread?
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mojede
Trad climber
Butte, America
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:35pm PT
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Good work on the topo.
Why does this route (which has KNOTT had a FA) get a name, number grading, and a star-quality rating?
Curious, but having put up a few FA's of my own, I am not surprised--the 3P's.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:46pm PT
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Slipknot wrote to Karl
"I like to hunt bald eagles by helicopter in Alaska. What do you think of that?"
as a balding guy myself, I think you're satan!
but heh, eagles are predators too, so what goes around comes around.
yet I feel it would be more trad if you climbed, ground up, into their nests and shot them with a bow and arrow....
And one more thing, there is a difference between the taste of reality between false hypothetical examples and real world examples. The world has has many facets and shades of grey, and made up reality fails the sniff test.
But to help you out.
Whether it's moral to live "in sin" without being married is a personal choice, a style issue between you, your partner and God.
If you want to marry an 11 year old, I think society needs to say 'No, that's a collective moral issue because the life of one too young to consent is involved." Yet, I believe someone accused of something like that should get due process of law, even though I don't agree with their alleged action.
There's a difference between those statements and "people who have sex outside marriage are sinners and will burn in hell" and "People who marry 11 year olds are pedophiles and should be shot first and questioned later"
Peace
Karl
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:47pm PT
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Huh? I always thought the "3 Ps" were Procreation, Passion, or Pleasure.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:51pm PT
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"Good work on the topo.
Why does this route (which has KNOTT had a FA) get a name, number grading, and a star-quality rating?
Curious, but having put up a few FA's of my own, I am not surprised--the 3P's."
Saying it hasn't had an FA is just a "panties in the bunch" way of speaking. You can then say it will "never have an ascent" due to it's tainted character.
If you feel that way, don't consider it a climbing star rating, imagine them as imaginary starry-eyed stars for climbers doing imaginary non-routes.
The climbing rating and star rating come from extremely experienced climbers who have shown us pictures of their route and until their opinion is proven otherwise, it's reasonable to go with it.
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:56pm PT
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I'm surprised, looking at the topo that nobody's complaining about the apparantly bolted wide physical 12a crack on pitch 7. '
How wide is that thing? I thought it was only Harding and Bridwell that bolted cracks in Yosemite. Just bringing it up since it was bound to be discussed.
That's another aspect of equiping the climb for future do-the-route-fast-and-light climbers that should be good for a few more dozen (or hundred) posts.
good job on the topo clint
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/yos/growingup.pdf
Peace
Karl
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 30, 2008 - 01:57pm PT
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I don't think the question should be asked "did anyone change their mind?" I think a more appropriate question to ask is "does anyone now have a deeper understanding of the feelings and issues on both sides of the discussion?"
While I don't agree with the style of the GU ascent, I now have a deeper understanding of why some people feel that the style is acceptable and also, more importantly, what they want to experience while rock climbing.
Bruce
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jstan
climber
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Apr 30, 2008 - 02:00pm PT
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Hey!
Looks like a smiley face.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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Apr 30, 2008 - 02:26pm PT
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Karl asks "I'm surprised, looking at the topo that nobody's complaining about the apparantly bolted wide physical 12a crack on pitch 7."
I was getting there, but I can only do so much.
Bruce
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