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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jun 18, 2018 - 10:13am PT
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life (at least to this being) has nothing at all to do with what appears to be primarily material.
Nor need it so appear. Enjoy life, material being.
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 18, 2018 - 12:31pm PT
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You aren't going to deconstruct anything that isn't physical, get it through your heads.
So wrong as usual for the gross materialists.
Time itself is NOT material nor physical.
No one can stop it nor manipulate it.
The gross materialists are fully subordinate to Time itself.
Time is the impersonal feature of God himself.
The gross materialists are always in poor fund of knowledge ultimately ......
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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Jun 18, 2018 - 01:10pm PT
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oppositional evolutionary biologist police intervention:
placental mammals are dichromats, except the species closely related to humans who are trichromats, except for a subset who are tetrachromats, maybe a direction of genetic drift
hirsutonian?
Meh? I thought things could go super super duper fast. Even with a "random/quantum" chance of brilliance, isn't it potentially still entropy?! beauty eh?
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jun 18, 2018 - 03:27pm PT
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To me, the adversarial positions of the science-skeptical crowd here are based on a wrong-headed approach to the question posed by the OP. I mean, I love the humanities! I love Warner Brothers cartoons and the Godfather movies. Beethoven's 7th typically makes me cry as does reading the last paragraph of James Joyce's The Dead. I love reading the biographies of important historical figures.
I don't believe that embracing a science-based view of mind in any way detracts from these humanistic sensibilities. I'm sure that most scientists feel the same way. Just because our minds evolved to be what they are following logical steps that can be described scientifically does not diminish the collective products of humanity.
So what if your subjective experience is nothing more than that? It doesn't make it any less experiential for you. The problem with embracing the rationalist as opposed to the empiricist side of the major philosophic divide is that you give up any hope of independent refereeing. Once you give up empiricism, anyone can start invoking "special insight" and such as "evidence" for their position.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jun 18, 2018 - 03:55pm PT
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Well said, eeyonkee.
There is still the funding-for-the-arts issue. Could we advocate for an arts tax on sales of art above a certain amount? Say a million dollars? Are there countries that do a good job of supporting the arts?
As eeyonkee makes clear, the arts are valuable. We get much from them and should give to them.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jun 18, 2018 - 04:07pm PT
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You're on a roll with cool links, I-b-goB.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jun 18, 2018 - 05:15pm PT
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“By your own observations of what you perceive as mind, what elements or characteristics or parts would you say there was of / to mind—if any?”
Off the top of my head (as it were):
—thoughts
—feelings / emotions
—memories
—dynamic flow / sequencing
—unresolvable (infinite?) depth
—manifestations / phenomena / displays / light
—indescribable textures (sounds, tactile sensations, etc.)
—awareness (consciousness?)
—a center, of some sort, of awareness
—interaction between the center and manifestations
—an inability to bracket anything out, or in, independently of everything else
—what appears to be a temporality (nothing seems to remain the same)
Of course this is a poor listing, and the wording or descriptions are also very poor. The items listed are likely over-lapped or redundant. I feel as though I am jabbing at feelings and images that are just out of my reach definitively. The effort and result (of the listing) is subjective.
What would you change, delete, or add to this list from your direct (subjective) experience? What are your personal observations?
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 18, 2018 - 05:39pm PT
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Only the self itself can understand "What is Mind" as it is.
The Rationalist and the empiricist will completely fail due to missing the self itself.
The gross materialists are always ultimately mental speculators with incomplete knowledge ......
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jun 18, 2018 - 08:15pm PT
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hirsutonian?
a cousin, but definitely a regression, though probably not mean
The gross materialists are always ultimately mental speculators with incomplete knowledge ......
guilty as charged!
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jun 18, 2018 - 10:08pm PT
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Of course this is a poor listing, and the wording or descriptions are also very poor. The items listed are likely over-lapped or redundant. I feel as though I am jabbing at feelings and images that are just out of my reach definitively.
The Renaissance was an age in which more individuals felt the value of their human being. Martin Luther was nailed to the church door at Wittenburg for selling papal indulgences. He died a horrible death, being exocommunicated by a bull. It was the painter Donatello’s interest in the female nude that made him the father of the Renaissance. It was the age of great inventions and discoveries. Gutenberg invented the Bible. Sir Walter Raleigh is a historical figure because he invented cigarettes. Another important invention was the circulation of blood. Sir Francis Drake circumcised the world with a 100-foot clipper.
In Europe the enlightenment was a reasonable time. Voltaire invented electricity and also wrote a book called “Candy”. Gravity was invented by Isaac Walton. It is chiefly noticable in the Autumn, when apples are falling off the trees.
King Alfred conquered the Dames.
King Arthur lived in the age of Shivery.
The Magna Carta provided that no free man be hanged twice for the same offense.
The government of England was a limited mockery.
Henry VIII found walking difficult because he had an abbess on his knee.
Queen Elizabeth was the “Virgin Queen”. As a queen she was a success. When Elizabeth exposed herself before her troops, they all shouted “hurrah”. Then her navy went out and defeated the Spanish Armadillo.
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Jim Clipper
climber
from: forests to tree farms
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Jun 18, 2018 - 10:30pm PT
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a cousin, but definitely a regression, though probably not mean
If a regression, please extrapolate, maybe to higher sets. Even if its illegal. Seriesaly. I admire your contributions here, even if most are beyond my reach.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Jun 18, 2018 - 11:06pm PT
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In Europe the enlightenment was a reasonable time. Voltaire invented electricity and also wrote a book called “Candy”. Gravity was invented by Isaac Walton. It is chiefly noticable in the Autumn, when apples are falling off the trees.
Good stuff, but no need to stop taking the medication, who knows, maybe even up-ing the dose.
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nafod
Boulder climber
State college
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Jun 19, 2018 - 05:54am PT
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“By your own observations of what you perceive as mind, what elements or characteristics or parts would you say there was of / to mind—if any?”
Symbols. I see symbols everywhere, and think in symbols. I see things like clouds and cars and trees, and not shapes like blue with serrated edges that is defined by the sky seen through the trees. I see words on a page, and not pen strokes.
Most of my thinking is in the English language, and who am I talking to when I think things out in my head anyway? Who is listening? What if I didn't know any language? Could I even have complex thoughts? Could I have a mind?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 19, 2018 - 10:07am PT
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Larry Nelson, here's a shortcut. Start here...
1. The Society of Mind, Marvin Minsky
2. The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, Julian Jaynes
3. Incognito, David Eagleman
We're a headful of competing circuits. Who's in charge? What is Self? this self in the machine?
Not for the faint of heart. Stunning, shocking if not destabilizing.
But keep the charge. There is a way through. "It goes, boys."
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