Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2018 - 02:10pm PT
|
^^^
MikeL, Sky and Water go together like hand in glove!
Blue Mind...
Why Being Near The Ocean Can Make You Calmer And More Creative
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2016/02/25/mental-benefits-water_n_5791024.html
Wallace J. Nichols, a marine biologist, believes that we all have a “blue mind” — as he puts it, “a mildly meditative state characterized by calm, peacefulness, unity, and a sense of general happiness and satisfaction with life in the moment” — that’s triggered when we’re in or near water.
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2018 - 02:25pm PT
|
Worldwide when folks are asked their favorite color the most common response is blue.
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2018 - 03:19pm PT
|
We cross that bridge (or don't) when we come to it.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2018 - 03:41pm PT
|
Since the structure of the human eye and human brain do not vary from culture to culture it seems hard to imagine that the perception of color and how it acts would change as well.
the human eye does vary in detail, and while we describe dominate trichromatism as a "human" characteristic in general, details vary from person to person, from gender to gender, and I would assume in various different populations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrachromacy#Humans
what am I getting at with associative memory?
we not only remember a thing, but we remember associations of things... thinking of "blue" could recall the ocean, the sky, feeling down, etc, and details of our experience that associates "blue" with all those things.
it is a type of memory architecture that evades the common place idea of memory storage as putting an item in a pigeon hole, and then seeking it out of the pigeon hole when you want it.
rather more like a spread sheet where various pigeon holes may be associated with attributes so that when you seek a particular pigeon hole, you have access to all the others associated with its content.
so "blue" has a subjective aspect, that is, my experiences that associate blue are different than someone else's. though many of those associations may be similar (or identical) many are not.
there is nothing mysterious or unknowable about such memory architectures, and associative memory is a particular architecture that has many beneficial aspects.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2018 - 04:08pm PT
|
Is there anything in the "finely tuned organic machinery" of our brains that causally determines that said organic machinery will translate light at 606–668 THz into the phenomenal experience of blue and only blue, as opposed to green or pink or orange?
A very good question. I suppose the more succinct way to explain "organic machinery" is to start with the relatively recently discovered photopigment melanopsin :
In humans, melanopsin is found in intrinsically photosensitive retinal ganglion cells (ipRGCs).[6] It is also found in the iris of mice and primates.[7] Melanopsin is also found in rats, amphioxus, and other chordates.[8] ipRGCs are photoreceptor cells which are particularly sensitive to the absorption of short-wavelength (blue) visible light and communicate information directly to the area of the brain called the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), also known as the central "body clock", in mammals.[9] Melanopsin plays an important non-image-forming role in the setting of circadian rhythms as well as other functions.
Moreover:
Melanopsin photoreceptors are sensitive to a range of wavelengths and reach peak light absorption at blue light wavelengths around 480 nanometers.[29] Other wavelengths of light activate the melanopsin signaling system with decreasing efficiency as they move away from the optimum 480 nm. For example, shorter wavelengths around 445 nm (closer to violet in the visible spectrum) are half as effective for melanopsin photoreceptor stimulation as light at 480 nm.[29]
So now you have a photopigment sensitive to blue light and is responsible for circadian photo entrainment. It is linked to several major structures in the brain . These structures are responsible for light and dark adaptions, for starters.
When light enters the eye, ipRGCs discharge nerve impulses. These neuronal electrical signals travel through neuronal axons to specific brain targets, such as the center of pupillary control called the olivary pretectal nucleus (OPN) of the midbrain. Consequently, stimulation of melanopsin contributes to the regulation of behavioral responses to light, such as pupil size and melatonin release from the pineal gland.[30] The ipRGCs in the mammalian retina form the retinohypothalamic tract that projects to the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), a region of the brain in the hypothalamus which is considered the master pacemaker of circadian rhythms.[9] The retinohypothalamic tract also receives input from rods and cones. Thus, information from all three opsins in the mammalian retina integrate before transmission to the SCN.[31]
Put simply blue light helps to connect your body functioning to the earth and the sun. Again, put simply ,blue light wakes you up , aided by cortisol and other factors. When the sun sets and blue light vanishes melatonin production is ramped-up leading to sleep, autophagy, apoptosis.
Melanopsin serves an important role in the photoentrainment of circadian rhythms in mammals. An organism that is photoentrained has aligned its activity to an approximately 24-hour cycle, the solar cycle on Earth.[33] In mammals, melanopsin expressing axons target the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) through the retinohypothalamic tract (RHT).[9
Another interesting thing about melanopsin is that you have some in your skin.Lol.
This is why mitochondriacs like myself try to avoid blue light from striking the skin at night.
When you expose these exquisite timing structures to blue light spikes at night from screens and artificial light you are messing with some finely tuned mechanisms.This is the source of much biological dysfunction currently.
( The most unfortunate development the last few years has been the switch to LED lighting in homes and streetlights, along with compact fluorescents. The incandescent bulb, while not nearly as salubrious as a campfire, by comparison to LEDs and CFLs was innocuous)
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2018 - 04:09pm PT
|
and wise words from philosophy on color:
--------------------------------------------------
Mind & Language
Vol. 4 No. 4 Winter 1989
ISSN 0268-1064
©Basil Blackwell
Having Ideas and Having the Concept
MARK CRIMMINS
First off, two questions to get you thinking:
1. Do blind persons have the concept red?
2. Can a blind person believe that a thing is red?
Philosophers too often have been unfair to the blind. The tradition from
Aristotle to Thomas Aquinas to Locke and onward has been to hold that
blind persons are missing much more than their sight.’ Not only is there
a lot that such persons do not see, the story goes, but there also is a lot
that such persons do not, and cannot, know or believe. Of course, there
may be an important sense in which someone blind from birth cannot
know what it is like to see things. And certainly a blind person cannot
come to know things by seeing. But these points are not at issue. Rather,
the question is whether thought, knowledge and belief about the colors
of things are inaccessible to those without the ability to sense colors.
I will argue that, despite what Aristotle and Aquinas say, blind persons
can and do have knowledge about the colors of things, and that, despite
what Locke says, blind persons can have, and most do have, ideas of color,
redness, brightness, and so on. But I won’t draw the line as cleanly as that
may lead you to expect: I will hold as well that blind persons do not
have the concepts of color, redness and brightness. What makes for the
(next page)
(footnote)
’The claim that a blind man cannot have an idea of color recurs throughout Locke’s
Essay Concerning Human Understanding, but it is by no means original with him.
Aquinas makes the point in a number of places to support his version of empiricism;
see for example 84/3 and 8414 in Summa Theologicae: ‘. . . a man born blind can have
no acquaintance with colors’, ‘a man who lacks one of the senses can nowise know
the objects corresponding to it’. And Aristotle in the Physics (11.1) writes, ’A man blind
from birth might reason about colors. Presumably therefore such persons must be talking
about words without any thought to correspond’.
-------------------------------------
So be careful. In order to know certain things about color, you need to be able to see.
But the story doesn't end, there.
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2018 - 05:05pm PT
|
the human eye does vary in detail, and while we describe dominate trichromatism as a "human" characteristic in general, details vary from person to person, from gender to gender, and I would assume in various different populations.
While it is true that variations exist in sight within visual capability from one human to another, like red/green color blindness and even the notion that some individuals might see color so acutely they see what others can't, these differences are so minor as to be insignificant in the various world wide cultural perceptions of color. The idea that perception of color is a function of cultural whimsy ignores the general physical uniformity of the system.
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2018 - 06:57pm PT
|
Ward said, "Put simply blue light helps to connect your body functioning to the earth and the sun."
All the references Ward put forth have nothing to do with "blue light," rather light waves at a frequency of 490–450 nm, at 610–670 THz.
This is not rhetorical, is not an argument, and is a big deal if you can see what's actually going on here.
So let's go back and make the distinction: the many fine examples of brain function per how it handles light waves in a frequency of 490–450 nm, at 610–670 THz, show our amazing capacity to register said light waves. However do you find anything in either light waves at a frequency of 490–450 nm, at 610–670 THz, or in Ward's examples of biological functioning, that explain in a determined causeal way, why we should have the phenomenal experience of "blue" and only blue?
Also, Ed's point about labeling is an interesting one, one that was very well brought to life by Tom Wolf's excellent book on art criticism called "The Painted Word." Tom's point was that once the interpretation of "flatness" was spelled out, then art buffs could "see" what Pollock and others were up to, and that without the interpretation, they "couldn't see a painting."
Of course this is an overstatement, since the interpretation was derived from what the critics SAW in previous paintings that were done before a theory was introduced. They just didn't "know" what they were looking at prior to the interpretation and doctrinization of said art.
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2018 - 07:27pm PT
|
The idea that perception of color is a function of cultural whimsy ignores the general physical uniformity of the system.
cultures are generally associated with isolated populations of humans,
isolated populations of humans can share common gene traits different from other populations
the physical properties of human sight are governed by genetic traits
human sight might differ from culture to culture, population to population depending on their genetic characteristics
maybe you see this as "whimsy"
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2018 - 07:34pm PT
|
do you find anything in either light waves at a frequency of 490–450 nm, at 610–670 THz, or in Ward's examples of biological functioning, that explain in a determined causeal[sic] way, why we should have the phenomenal experience of "blue" and only blue?
No. But that doesn't mean there isn't one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wednesday_Is_Indigo_Blue
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2018 - 08:25pm PT
|
Tom's [Tom Wolfe's] point was that once the interpretation of "flatness" was spelled out, then art buffs could "see" what Pollock and others were up to, and that without the interpretation, they "couldn't see a painting."
This rings false.
Paul?
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2018 - 08:43pm PT
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evQsOFQju08
Some might find this one interesting, though the guy swaps out blue for red.
Amazingly, these kinds of topics enjoy a huge audience. 20 million and counting on this link.
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
|
Jun 15, 2018 - 11:13pm PT
|
This rings false.
The notion of an awareness of flatness in painting goes back at least to Cezanne in terms of the modern epic. Flatness in a work by Pollock is a declaration of truth in so far as any painting on a two dimensional surface that articulates the illusion of space is just that: an illusion.
An illusion by definition is untrue or a lie. The attempt in abstract expressionism was, among other things, an attempt at creating a painting that was both truthful and aesthetically engaging and flatness was the truthful reality.
Wolfe's great insight was the notion that art production had subordinated itself to the critical theory of folks like Clement Greenberg and Harold Rosenberg so that works of art had become illustrations of theory rather than expressions of the artist's aesthetic interest.
There's a similarity here to the idea of blue as a measurement of the reality of the wave length that produces it insofar as there is no blue. The picture plane on which we find the illusion of space lacks any space at all. In Pollock's painting is the realization/declaration of this paradox.
And yes Wolf points out, quite accurately, that the modernist cart is put before the horse to some degree.
False? No I don't think so.
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
|
|
Jun 16, 2018 - 07:31am PT
|
"I am Nature."
(Jackson Pollock, attributed by Lee Krasner (1964) in "Oral history interview with Lee Krasner, 1964 Nov. 2-1968 Apr. 11)
"It [Pollock’s painting, 'She wolf’] came into existence because I had to paint it. Any attempt on my part to say something about it, to attempt explanation of the inexplicable, could only destroy it."
(Jackson Pollock, 1947)
"When I am in my painting, I am not aware of what I'm doing. It is only after a short of 'get acquainted' period that I see what I have been about. I have no fears about making changes, destroying the image, etc., because the painting has a life of its own. I try to let it come through. It is only when I lose contact with the painting that the result is a mess. Otherwise there is pure harmony, an easy give and take, and the painting comes out well."
(Jackson Pollock, in 'Possibilities', Vol. 1, no 1, winter 1947-48, p. 79; as quoted in Jackson Pollock (1983) by Elizabeth Frank, p. 68)
The Sanskrit notion of a Rasa (see Kashmiri Shaivite philosopher Abhinavagupta, c. 1000 CE) is an exposition in drama, songs and other performance arts. Although entertainment is the desired effect, it is not the primary goal. The primary goal is to transport members of an audience into the essence of his or her own consciousness. Good art should transform worldly emotions into aesthetic sentiments in the heart to expose pristine and unelaborated consciousness: the experience of experience itself.
The 9 Rasas are: the erotic, the comic, the wrathful, the compassionate, the disgusting, the terrifying, the heroic or inspiring (relevant to climbing?), the astonishing, and the peaceful. All are, and can be show to be, experiences of beauty.
|
|
yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
|
|
|
Jun 16, 2018 - 07:33am PT
|
Tarski looked there and showed that truth in the system cannot be defined within the system.
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Jun 16, 2018 - 07:49am PT
|
Thank you, Paul.
I find this sort of thing reveals much about the human mind.
The false note in Largo's post comes from brevity, a sin I am guilty of, or maybe just not caring enough whether other people understand or not.
Your answer has more to say and is very helpful.
I looked up flatness in art:
http://www.theartstory.org/definition-flatness.htm
written by a Justin Wolf(!)
Artists and art critics are for the most part well aware of convention and the need to question prevailing ideas. I am not sure who art buffs are.
The typical human mind is strongly influenced by prevailing opinion and other social pressures, many of which are subtle and hard to notice, and therefore hard to avoid or resist.
There are people who are not so sensitive to social influence. Some have strong minds of their own. They can see what other people don't. Some people have mental abnormalities that make it hard for them to see anything as other people do.
I hope that Tom Wolfe's great insight does not mean that he is a person of illegitimate birth. The lesson of The Emperor's New Clothes has been placed as early as 1052 in a fable from India.
Our susceptibility to social influence is important for our ability to cooperate with each other. It can cause trouble, too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_influence
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
|
Jun 16, 2018 - 07:50am PT
|
Tarski looked there and showed that truth in the system cannot be defined within the system.
Serves him right for resorting to Wikipedia.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
|
Jun 16, 2018 - 08:15am PT
|
Sorry more thread drift...
Beyond imagining blue, try to imagine blue-yellow. Most people can’t do it because the way our eyes see colors blue and yellow cancel each other out, so most of us have never seen it but it exists. One of the “forbidden colors”.
They did an experiment with eye tracking and people were able to see it (and red-green). I am able to see it by looking at the images in the link below, letting my eyes go out of focus, and slowly the border between blue and yellow becomes blue-yellow. It’s a beautiful color! I can see red-green as well but it’s a little harder to see and not as stunning. (Side note I usually buy red disc golf discs because they stand out the best against green grass)
So now I can imagine blue-yellow (blellow if you will) when before I couldn’t. Wild.
https://www.livescience.com/17948-red-green-blue-yellow-stunning-colors.html
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!