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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 13, 2018 - 07:19pm PT
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It rarely occurs to people that thinking in causitive terms is a perspective that DOES work, but it nevertheless a perspective. The Buddhists are huge on cause and effect.
However there are other perspectives that offer other truths.
What we see so often here is someone from that perspective challenging people for causitive proof of ANOTHER perspective. That's not an especially cogent request.
Trying to "see" from a non-causitive perspective is another dead end. We already are, we just don't know it till it happens, and we see the idea that "my brain is only fooling me into believing this" for what it is.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jun 13, 2018 - 07:20pm PT
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I like the material. I feel it as spiritual.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Jun 13, 2018 - 07:35pm PT
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and we see the idea that "my brain is only fooling me into believing this" for what it is
I'm lost. What is it?
Sorry, I'm slow tonight.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jun 13, 2018 - 07:53pm PT
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Jogill,
Illusion is the result of ignorance, and ignorance is incomplete understanding. All perspectives are valid, but no perspective is complete. If you will, the One shows up in infinite variegated’ness, each with its perspective. You’d have to combine them all (I guess) to see fully. It can’t be done, of course, so one must make the assumption that what they see is limited (in so many ways).
P.S. Ever see "Rashoman?"
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jun 13, 2018 - 08:00pm PT
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Illusion is the result of ignorance, and ignorance is incomplete understanding. All perspectives are valid, but no perspective is complete. If you will, the One shows up in infinite variegated’ness, each with its perspective. You’d have to combine them all (I guess) to see fully. It can’t be done, of course, so one must make the assumption that what they see is limited (in so many ways).
And yet the philosopher eats the steak on the fork, same as anyone, most of the time.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Jun 13, 2018 - 08:23pm PT
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Hindu and Buddhist philosophers don't eat steak.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Jun 13, 2018 - 08:57pm PT
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and we see the idea that "my brain is only fooling me into believing this" for what it is
The truth, I suspect. The mind is a wily coyote, a trickster.
But thanks, Mike.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jun 14, 2018 - 08:08am PT
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Hindu and Buddhist philosophers don't eat steak.
But they do eat? As used in Feynman's light-hearted comments on philosophy, the steak is only an example of food and the point is that almost everyone eats whether or not they fully comprehend the nature of reality.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jun 14, 2018 - 09:21am PT
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It might just look like what we call eating.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2018 - 09:29am PT
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What Ludwig W. and Mike have said is that we can describe things and phenomenon with great detail, and even say that when conditions X,Y, and Z are present, Q will follow. But this doesn't explain why that is so.
That is, when the brain intakes light waves in the frequency of ~670–610 THz, we see blue and not pink or orange. There is nothing inherent in either light waves or our brain that "causes" a specific outcome in a determined way, meaning that ~670–610 THz can only be blue and nothing else.
It DOES work out that way and we can describe the process pretty much exactly, but there is no explanation or cause why only that outcome occurs. Laws describe what DOES happen, they do not explain why. Seeking inherent qualities does not explain why they are inherent. They simply are sans cause or explanations.
"Why" is a trick question when considered in terms of determined causes. Outcomes are predictable, but we don't know why.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jun 14, 2018 - 09:36am PT
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It might just look like what we call eating.
It might, but what difference would that make?
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Jun 14, 2018 - 01:21pm PT
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Wrestling with the Thing...
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WBraun
climber
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Jun 14, 2018 - 03:01pm PT
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but what difference would that make? (to what you are eating)
If you don't know, then you still are in Neanderthal and animal consciousness and still NOT human being yet.
Just a polished animal.
Neanderthal and animal consciousness can NOT understand "What is Mind" at all, only human being can understand .....
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2018 - 03:17pm PT
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The thing I see with my eyes is called blue.
You've taken the conversation sideways, Dingus. But I'll bite.
What do you mean, "My eyes see." If you pried them from your head would they still "see?"
There's a sensor on the movement detector in my back yard. Does it also "see," or merely register movement? What is the difference in the two functions?
If the gadget in my backyard was reprogrammed to respond to light in the
620–750 nm wavelength at 400–484 THz, would it see "blue?"
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Jun 14, 2018 - 03:55pm PT
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There's a sensor on the movement detector in my back yard. Does it also "see," or merely register movement? What is the difference in the two functions? The sensor merely detects motion. An organism that evolved from an organism that could only detect motion, on the other hand, could use this functionality as a base for all kinds of new capabilities. That's what evolution does. Humans do, indeed "see" blue, with exceptions (like the guy who sat next to me in Optical Mineralogy).
If the gadget in my backyard was reprogrammed to respond to light in the 620–750 nm wavelength at 400–484 THz, would it see "blue?" No.
In my opinion Largo, you greatly underestimate the power of evolution to explain things. Evolution includes equal parts science and computer programming logic. It's all because of that crazy DNA molecule.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 14, 2018 - 04:41pm PT
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You're missing it, Eyonkee. I'm not presenting an "argument."
You said, "Humans do, indeed "see" blue, with exceptions (like the guy who sat next to me in Optical Mineralogy)."
What is the difference between "blue," as known and experienced by conscious humans who are NOT colorblind, and light at a wavelength of 450–495 nm and 606–668 THz?
Another way to put this:
Is the blue that you "see" on the wall "out there" the same as the blue you experience in your mind?
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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Jun 14, 2018 - 05:02pm PT
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but there is no explanation or cause why only that outcome occurs
It could be intelligent design!
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jun 14, 2018 - 06:13pm PT
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Is the blue that you "see" on the wall "out there" the same as the blue you experience in your mind?
Is the steak (or kale) you see on your fork the same as the steak or kale you experience in your mind?
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