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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Deep, Paul.
And funny.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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Deep, Paul. Yeah thanks, deep can be good. It's not that hard and with a little practice you might be able to do it too. Good luck.
And funny. Your thoughtful insights/critiques are always appreciated and so helpful to the discussion, thanks.
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WBraun
climber
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"Humans are animals "
No. Animals are NOT humans.
You over complicated gross materialists can't even understand a simple thing.
A human being can though remain in animal consciousness due to ignorance and brainwashing.
The only goal of a human being is self realization otherwise you're just in animal consciousness.
An animal has no capacity for self realization and that's what distinguish the difference between humans and animals.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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When the burning bush speaks to Moses and declares "I am that I am," it is a declaration of the mystery of the "I," in both the individual and universal sense
And it is a profound mystery. Zen practice, it seems, allows the meditator to see beyond the "I" and to recognize it as an artifice. At the other end of the spectrum, Castaneta's Art of Dreaming allows the "I" to break away from its physical boundaries and become pure will, showing its extraordinary vitality and strength.
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
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https://qz.com/1294941/a-debate-over-plant-consciousness-is-forcing-us-to-confront-the-limitations-of-the-human-mind/
Stuck in the self
Because we are steeped in an ancient tradition of human-centrism, we believe that our experience of life is what defines consciousness, and that our brain’s processes are the height of intelligence. But there is some evidence that other modes of existence are equally complex, which suggests that other living things have arguably intelligent or conscious experiences.
Evolutionary ecologist Monica Gagliano insists that plants are intelligent, and she’s not speaking metaphorically. “My work is not about metaphors at all,” Gagliano tells Forbes. “When I talk about learning, I mean learning. When I talk about memory, I mean memory.”
Gagliano’s behavioral experiments on plants suggest that—while plants don’t have a central nervous system or a brain—they behave like intelligent beings. She says that if plants can summon knowledge about an experience repeatedly—as was the case with the potted plants that stopped curling their leaves after they learned they would come to no harm—then plants are clearly able to remember and learn from experience.
Gagliano, who began her career as a marine scientist, says her work with plants triggered a profound epiphany. “The main realization for me wasn’t the fact that plants themselves must be something more than we give them credit for, but what if everything around us is much more than we give it credit for, whether it’s animal, plant, bacteria, whatever.”
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yanqui
climber
Balcarce, Argentina
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"Humans are animals "
No. Animals are NOT humans.
A Venn diagram might help clear this up.
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WBraun
climber
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A Venn diagram might help clear this up.
No it won't.
Not everything can be understood by the material mind.
It takes something beyond that .....
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Go-B, good. The allegory of the cave is a very good one, IMO.
Jogill: . . . the "I" to break away from its physical boundaries and become pure will, showing its extraordinary vitality and strength.
You might also like Kashmiri Saivism, but it’s a hard read. There “will” is referred to as , Iccha, but that “will” is pre-cognitive energy or impetus to create, . . . just like you, John. Iccha is the natural outpouring of energy to express itself, just as you (and most others) do here.
Life cannot be contained. It explodes outward into “things” all around us. The energy goes before you and your consciousness. It is the pulse of the universe. It’s like a heart, . . . beating, beating, beating. One cannot contain life.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Your thoughtful insights/critiques are always appreciated and so helpful to the discussion, thanks
Kind words, Paul.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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. . . but that “will” is pre-cognitive energy or impetus to create
Doesn't resemble my experiences, Mike. More like,"I've wanted to do this and now all barriers are down and I can sail forth in ecstasy, unrestrained and all powerful - able to twist reality to my desires." Perhaps something else in Eastern religion.
Since that initial instance in the 1970s I have felt this kind of experience has a great deal to do with the spread of religions. The glimpse of what might be interpreted as an afterlife and the joy to be found there.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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jogill: More like,"I've wanted to do this and now all barriers are down and I can sail forth in ecstasy, unrestrained and all powerful - able to twist reality to my desires."
Ok, sure.
Where does that “this” (the thought, the idea of the thing you wanted to do) come from? How does it arise in consciousness?
(As for “twisting reality to your desires,” I would have my doubts about your abilities. The rest of humanity seems to be having problems with that one.)
:-)
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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As for “twisting reality to your desires,” I would have my doubts about your abilities
Actually, in the Art of Dreaming you may very well do just that. Not so easy in the normal world. For example, in my first experience I wanted to walk through a closed door - and I did. Like walking through thick fog.
Tell me no-thingness is more fun than that!
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Before I turn-in tonight . . . .
When consciousness focuses on any object, it becomes vivid and more detailed. When we focus on something else, the previous object becomes vague. When consciousness / awareness reverts back on itself, it shifts back to itself, it shifts from objective to subjective primarily, the vividness of objects dissolves and becomes a background wallpaper of consciousness. At that very point, one can experience the joy / beauty of being aware—a sort of aesthetic rapture. Caught between thoughts.
Awareness often reverts inward after one has been absorbed in a rapturous experience, which is actually an acknowledgement of the self as a conscious agent. An articulation verbally of that very recognition bursts the bubble of the aesthetic enrapturement.
What absorbs your attention? That’s what triggers the experience / the process. It’s an intensified moment of awareness that raises one out of the habitual consciousness. It can happen a t any time, anywhere. Any experience can be an aesthetic experience.
Awareness is fascinated by everything. It’s sort of in love with everything.
Do not resist reality. Receive experience fully. Do not let any trace of the experience remain behind. Inundate yourself in everything, and swim for air.
Good night.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Once I saw a chimpanzee gaze at a particularly beautiful sunset for a full 15 minutes, watching the changing colors [and then] retire to the forest without picking a pawpaw for supper.
Adriaan Kortlandt
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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one can experience the joy / beauty of being aware
Part of the fun of following SuperTopo.
But it doesn't exclude being aware of sadness and suffering, too.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Awareness is fascinated by everything. It’s sort of in love with everything
Does awareness have a will of its own? Its own identity?
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 8, 2018 - 05:16pm PT
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In my experience, awareness has no qualities whatsoever, no intention, no content. So whatever we say about it is not it. It's the context in which everything else arises, including the thought, "My brain generated my awareness."
Relaxing back into awareness is perhaps where our causal thinking ceases, including, "I'm only thinking or perceiving that this is so."
The impersonal jhanas zip past this in ways I won't try and describe. venturing out past "perceiving and not perceiving" does not readily lend itself to any words I understand.
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nafod
Boulder climber
State college
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You would appreciate The Book of Not-knowing by Peter Ralston. Consciousness work without the voodoo.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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So whatever we say about it is not it.
Same with zen.
Same with anything.
It doesn't follow from that that saying stuff about things is not helpful in many different ways.
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