Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
jogill
climber
Colorado
|
|
Most of us when we awaken move quickly from unconsciousness to full awareness, passing through that initial empty stage too rapidly to experience it; roughly like the function A(t)=√t with t going from 0 to 1.
Here's a question: Is it possible for experienced meditators to awaken so gradually as to experience the initial emptiness? More like A(t)= t² ?
Or must one slip meditatively into that mode from a full, focused state?
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
|
jogill: Most of us when we awaken move quickly from unconsciousness to full awareness, . . . .
I’ve seen only the fewest of people who have seemed to awakened fully. But that’s a contemporary notion, that liberation is something that one has or doesn’t have. If one considers it closely, everyone must be fully realized. They just don’t know it. The “programs” that yanqui refers to keeps everyone deaf, dumb, and blind. Fish looking for water.
Meditation, being drunk, being asleep, getting your brains beaten out is all the same thing.
BTW, I’m not qualified to see what you believe or speculate.
I’ve seen that anything can show up, and I can never predict anything with specificity.
Cheers.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
Meditation, being drunk, being asleep, getting your brains beaten out is all the same thing.
NO !!!!!
Good grief Mike ..... lol
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
|
It's all consciousness, Werner. The flavors and textures may be different, but they are all parts of consciousness.
"Wow, sadness is really painful." "Gosh, joy is wonderful and feels really different than pain."
One taste.
:-)
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
One taste.
Possibly a consequence of too much meditation, like staring at the sun?
;-)
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
So a dog is aware, an ameba is aware, a plant is aware but their consciousness are all at different stages of development.
Thus awareness is NOT as important as consciousness and it's development.
A so-called human being can be just as aware as a dog or blade of grass.
But human being consciousness is far more developed than your dog or any animal or plant or bacteria, etc.
Consciousness is the root of life itself ......
|
|
jogill
climber
Colorado
|
|
I’ve seen only the fewest of people who have seemed to awakened fully
I should have seen that coming! OK, let's say full awareness that most of us experience each day when working at a task. Not something a Zen monk would aspire to.
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
“People say that what we’re all seeking is a meaning for life. I don’t think that’s what we’re really seeking. I think that what we’re seeking is an experience of being alive, so that our life experiences on the purely physical plane will have resonances within our own innermost being and reality, so that we actually feel the rapture of being alive.” Campbell
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
our life experiences on the purely physical plane
How many other planes are there, and what are they?
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
How many other planes are there, and what are they?
That depends entirely on how you define the term physical, or on how you describe what a thought is or what an an experience is.
“Mythology is not a lie, mythology is poetry, it is metaphorical. It has been well said that mythology is the penultimate truth--penultimate because the ultimate cannot be put into words. It is beyond words. Beyond images, beyond that bounding rim of the Buddhist Wheel of Becoming. Mythology pitches the mind beyond that rim, to what can be known but not told.” Campbell
|
|
i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
|
|
Shemp is conscious even sleeping...
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Analogy of the Horse and Carriage — G. I. Gurdjieff
A man as a whole with all his separately concentrated and functioning localizations, that is to say his formed and independently educated "personalities," is almost exactly comparable to that organization for conveying a passenger, which consists of a carriage, a horse, and a coachman.
It must first of all be remarked that the difference between a 'real' man and a pseudo man, that is, between one who has his own "I" and one who has not, is indicated in the analogy we have taken by the passenger sitting in the carriage. In the first case, that of the real man, the passenger is the owner of the carriage; and in the second case, he is simply the first chance passer-by who, like the fare in a "hackney carriage," is continuously being changed.
The body of a man with all its motor reflex manifestations corresponds simply to the carriage itself; all the functionings and manifestations of feeling of a man correspond to the horse harnessed to the carriage and drawing it; the coachman sitting on the box and directing the horse corresponds to that in a man which people call 'consciousness' or mentation; and finally, the passenger seated in the carriage and commanding the coachman is that which is called "I."
The fundamental evil among contemporary people is chiefly that, owing to the rooted and widespread abnormal methods of education of the rising generation, this fourth personality which should be present in everybody on reaching responsible age is entirely missing in them; and almost all of them consist only of the three enumerated parts, which parts, moreover, are formed arbitrarily of themselves and anyhow. In other words, almost every contemporary man of responsible age consists of nothing more nor less than simply a "hackney carriage," and one moreover, composed as follows: a broken-down carriage "which has long ago seen its day," a crock of a horse, and, on the box, a tatterdemalion, half-sleepy, half-drunken coachman whose time designated by Mother Nature for self-perfection passes while he waits on a corner, fantastically daydreaming, for any old chance passenger. The first passenger who happens along hires him and dismisses him just as he pleases, and not only him but also all the parts subordinate to him.
Definition of tatterdemalion
1 : ragged or disreputable in appearance
2 : being in a decayed state or condition : dilapidated
3: Dirtbag!
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
to what can be known but not told
He tells us.
People are funny.
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
|
“Tell me what you want, and I’ll tell you who you are.” Fantasy pulls our chariots forward.
Civilization works; culture flowers. Civilization is historical record, but it looks and pulls us forward. Culture looks backward, and when it does, it grows. All societies are psychopathological because their cultures are mythic enterprises. Mythical conversations must use poetic distortions. It must be full of hyperbole.
Individually, everyone has his or her own myth. One’s myth becomes one’s truth—his or her life symbolic and allegorical. To be psychological is to see oneself in the masks of the particular fiction that appears to be one’s to enact. Psychologically, people would seem to need to embrace expressionism, not impressionism or abstract representations (modeling).
Moderns tend to adhere to one point of view, but they could use something that looks like polytheism these days because polytheism honors all sides . It is virtuous to be flexible, embracing, tolerant, patient, and complicated.
(Paraphrased from some of James Hillman’s writings.)
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
|
|
Duck: . . . awareness is NOT as important as consciousness and it's development.
The awareness I am talking about includes self-reflection, which other life seems to show no evidence that it has discovered. (It’s a question of the fullness of emanation in an instantiation. One could call it evolution.)
Awareness would seem to be the essential center of us. It could be described as a fire that devours all things. It configures itself as knower, it is knowing, and it generates all objects that are known.
Awareness manifests first purely as energy.
Awareness knows the mind, but the mind cannot know it, for the mind seems like a little janitor keeping things tidy and neat with conceptualization.
One cannot seem to see the point from which all seeing is done. One can only *be* awareness. From that, energy appears to manifest into everything.
|
|
MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
|
|
To be psychological is to see oneself in the masks of the particular fiction that appears to be one’s to enact.
And some people are more funny than others. Who wants to be psychological? Why not just help a few other people and have a little fun, yourself?
James Hillman thought too long and hard about what goes on in peoples' heads. As he says, "the moment you've defined the snake, interpreted it, you've lost the snake."
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
And some people are more funny than others. Who wants to be psychological? Why not just help a few other people and have a little fun, yourself?
James Hillman thought too long and hard about what goes on in peoples' heads. As he says, "the moment you've defined the snake, interpreted it, you've lost the snake."
Oh, I see, what can be known but can't be told.
And some people are absolutely hilarious but remain oblivious to the reason why.
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
The root of awareness is from consciousness itself as the self itself ( "I" ).
Thus to understand awareness consciousness must first be fully understood..
Without consciousness first there would be zero life and what to speak of any awareness period .......
|
|
Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
|
|
snakes?
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/360/6391/881
Evolution of pallium, hippocampus, and cortical cell types revealed by single-cell transcriptomics in reptiles
Maria Antonietta Tosches, Tracy M. Yamawaki, Robert K. Naumann, Ariel A. Jacobi, Georgi Tushev, Gilles Laurent
Abstract
Computations in the mammalian cortex are carried out by glutamatergic and γ-aminobutyric acid–releasing (GABAergic) neurons forming specialized circuits and areas. Here we asked how these neurons and areas evolved in amniotes. We built a gene expression atlas of the pallium of two reptilian species using large-scale single-cell messenger RNA sequencing. The transcriptomic signature of glutamatergic neurons in reptilian cortex suggests that mammalian neocortical layers are made of new cell types generated by diversification of ancestral gene-regulatory programs. By contrast, the diversity of reptilian cortical GABAergic neurons indicates that the interneuron classes known in mammals already existed in the common ancestor of all amniotes.
"...Our study indicates that interneuron diversity is ancestral to both mammals and reptiles. The conservation of interneuron classes over at least 320 million years suggests not only that there is selective pressure for interneuron diversity but also that interneuron diversity itself may have evolved in stem vertebrates within primordial cortical circuits (37). Alternatively, the conservation of interneuron classes may result simply from developmental constraints on subpallium patterning. The combined molecular and functional investigation of circuit motifs in reptilian cortex may shed light on the ancestral design and computational logic of vertebrate cortices."
Amniote are only 350 million years old... which I consider to be an amazingly short time... a wonder.
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
A wonder no doubt. Fascinating to consider the first life form with the realization "I am." A metaphorical equivalent is the first bite of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil in Genesis. Where guilt and duty/dharma enter the realm of (at least human) consciousness. When the burning bush speaks to Moses and declares "I am that I am," it is a declaration of the mystery of the "I," in both the individual and universal sense.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!