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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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May 20, 2018 - 12:45pm PT
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There is real power in no thinking and in what you think!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 20, 2018 - 05:04pm PT
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Here you immediately run into a problem. The stronger are special as it is the stronger who are likely to survive and procreate.
maybe you should learn more about evolution, which takes place over populations and long times (generations).
the "stronger" are not at all obvious, it isn't about you, Paul...
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WBraun
climber
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May 20, 2018 - 05:25pm PT
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There's also the evolution of the soul as it transmigrates thru the different material bodies as it evolves and devolves in consciousness.
Consciousness is the single most important factor in understanding life and Mind.....
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 20, 2018 - 07:52pm PT
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Regarding all that fancy French philosophy, in so far as it wakes us up to prejudices in thought and provides insights into otherwise calcified acceptance, I'm all for it. But when it declares all hierarchies as functions or structures solely of power, when everything is interpreted as a cog in a structure of oppression, I find it hard to take seriously.
Oddly reminiscent of the french fry contentiousness.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 20, 2018 - 08:28pm PT
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For me, a writer, postmodernism implied (and in some cases said so outright) that the classical narrative template, with its tidy beginning, middle and end, was a construct that didn't square, whatsoever, with the fits and starts and fragmented story line found in most people's lives
Postmodernism?
I thought it was Bob Dylan who said that.
It's a Hard Rain's a-Gonna Fall
Desolation Row
"Yes, I received your letter yesterday, about the time the doorknob broke"
"Right now I can't read too good, don't send me any more letters, no"
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 20, 2018 - 08:36pm PT
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maybe you should learn more about evolution, which takes place over populations and long times (generations).
the "stronger" are not at all obvious, it isn't about you, Paul...
The stronger may not be obvious but they are, nevertheless, stronger and therefore survive. Why on earth should they not take advantage of the weak to further their survival? Maybe there are others that should learn more about evolution. Your assumptions boggle the mind. But hey, that's science I suppose.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 21, 2018 - 07:56am PT
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The stronger may not be obvious but they are, nevertheless, stronger and therefore survive.
Too simplified. Survival of the fittest, or "strongest," has been accused of being a circular argument. How do you know who is more fit? The ones that survive. Why do they survive? Because they are more fit.
When the environment a species lives in changes, as often happens, the selective advantage of genetic traits may change, too. Being fitter and stronger is a moving target for evolution.
Ecclesiastes 9:11
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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May 21, 2018 - 08:16am PT
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 21, 2018 - 08:20am PT
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Too simplified. Survival of the fittest, or "strongest," has been accused of being a circular argument. How do you know who is more fit? The ones that survive. Why do they survive? Because they are more fit.
When the environment a species lives in changes, as often happens, the selective advantage of genetic traits may change, too. Being fitter and stronger is a moving target for evolution.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the argument. The argument is about whether or not an ethical foundation or a foundation for moral behavior as in "we hold these truths to be self evident" can or does exist without imposing some notion of a higher power or some religious doctrine. That is whether a natural morality exists within the context of an evolution in which the paradigm is survival at least until you can get your rocks off otherwise your species does not survive. Good grief.
Romans 11:32
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 21, 2018 - 09:24am PT
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evolution is the interaction of life (as organized into species) with the environment over a time scale of significant changes to the environment and life
given the 4.5 billion year history of Earth, 4.1 billion years of it included life, a long view would probably not make the distinction, that is Earth as a physical place must include life
it would probably have been difficult to pick winners and losers from the beginning, but the criteria for "winning" is a continuation of life, from that sense, we might regard life as a 4.1 billion year continuous, non-equilibrium chemical reaction
criteria for continued life include sustained metabolism and reproduction
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 21, 2018 - 09:43am PT
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criteria for continued life include sustained metabolism and reproduction
Yes, and within that sustained metabolism can you find a structure that necessitates a human recognition of the absolute political equality and equality of civil rights of all human beings?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 21, 2018 - 10:12am PT
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I think so, as well as a justification of individual liberty and rights
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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May 21, 2018 - 11:27am PT
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Based on what? That we're an intelligent species and these are the most intelligent ways of organizing things?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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May 21, 2018 - 11:32am PT
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Meanwhile, don't forget the role of frivolity in all of this. Just look at all the bright plumage and crazy songs and dances the males of various species have to evolve to keep the females interested in reproduction. Examples like peacock feathers hardly seem the strongest or most efficient method of mate acquisition.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 21, 2018 - 11:33am PT
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I think so, as well as a justification of individual liberty and rights
Please explain. Why is slavery wrong or why is the oppression of others for the enhancement of one's own potential survival wrong? Why shouldn't our individual evolutionary goal be simply to impregnate as many women as possible and have our slaves care for the offspring? It seems to me the institution of equality sacrifices evolutionary success for the sake of what we call fairness. Fairness is placed above both group and individual success: consider the messy, inefficient incompetence of democracy and the need to mediate it through "natural rights."
The notion of fairness is another testimony to the nobility of the human race. And though its source is no doubt originally the evolutionary process, it has been elevated by mind to a level of importance that trumps that very process. As Matthew Arnold said, "There is something that inclined us to Greek and we know because we got there." One is hard pressed to find a basis for a moral life by looking to evolution absent the mediation of the human mind.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 21, 2018 - 11:47am PT
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...can or does exist without imposing some notion of a higher power or some religious doctrine
Good grief is right! Well, at least you make a clear distinction between the two and note the fact imposition is the key to either.
One is hard pressed to find a basis for a moral life by looking to evolution absent the mediation of the human mind.
Nonsense.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 21, 2018 - 12:10pm PT
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//One is hard pressed to find a basis for a moral life by looking to evolution absent the mediation of the human mind.
//Nonsense.
Great argument, thoughtful and well reasoned.
Your seeming is shortsighted.
Yes, explain to that great white shark about lunch on you the moral consequences of its actions.
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paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
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May 21, 2018 - 12:28pm PT
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Do elephants and whales, individuals of which put themselves at great risk to defend their friends and families, need your higher moral authority? Could evolution ever produce a natural selection that sacrifices the self for the many? Is that even conceivable in your tightly scripted definiton of evolution?
My point isn't that evolution can't or doesn't produce such things. My point is the degree to which humanity has elevated such a notion to a complexity of wisdom that places morality/virtue as our highest achievement. It is a morality we extend to all living things as well as each other and that's pretty remarkable.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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May 21, 2018 - 12:54pm PT
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Your morality and virtue is a product of evolution, not a god.
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