Climate Change skeptics? [ot]

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bobinc

Trad climber
Portland, Or
Jun 15, 2011 - 12:16pm PT
I did post the paranoia comment. I've tried to see your side, Chief, but I guess I just don't respect that view (despite seeing its attractive side). You've done a good job of hiding up in Mono County (which presumably is a UN-free zone or somesuch) but the world needs grownups now more than ever.

I measure things for a living and I know there is always instrument error. But there's a lot of temperature data out there and most of it is good. There are ways to know how much inaccuracy exists and to correct for the inaccuracy. The evidence is clear enough to those who care to look at it.

I'm glad you found your niche. I'm also glad you are not involved in making decisions about things such as carbon taxes. Lassez faire is a quaint approach in this day and age.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 15, 2011 - 01:26pm PT
Interesting conclusion, Bruce. You must not have been through many campaigns in California. Otherwise, you (1) would not be surprised that people argue to win, not to find truth, and (2) would never conclude that only one side distorts the truth.

John
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Jun 15, 2011 - 01:43pm PT
The Chief,

I'm not sure I'm following your argument that confirming the presence of AGW promotes the pro-AGW agenda. What is that agenda?

The scientific and statistical evidence that human activity explains, and therefore logically causes, what would otherwise be climate anomolies in the recent past is overwhelming. Sure the models have imperfections. So what? That doesn't make the alternative explanation better. The only "agenda" I see uniting the climate scientists is an attempt to understand those factors that affect our climate, period. What to do about it, however, is a different story.

Klein offers one cure. I suspect that a majority of Americans find that cure worse than the disease. There's where "agendas" come into play. Klein puts little value on individualism, economic freedom, or the desire of a country or people to be different from the rest of the world. Most Americans put a much greater value on those. The battles should be over those relative values.

Scientific skepticism, a cornerstone of scientific thought, will insure that our incomplete modeling of climate improves. In that sense, I've always found the title of this thread unfortunate (sorry, k-man). As a lay person, even one with a graduate education and 38 years experience in the nuances of statistical estimation using non-experimental data, I have nothing worthwhile to add to the scientific debate, but as a citizen and an economist, I have a lot to say about the solution. So do you.

John


k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2011 - 01:58pm PT
Thought I'd drop back into see if The Chief ever tried to back up his absurd claim with anything resembling a fact or a reference (that AGW supporters are like brainwashed religious fanatics).

Of course, he did nothing of the sort, even though the prize was a brand new Red Camalot. But instead, he resorted to an even more absurd tactic:

K-MAN:

Classic response by any AGW fanatic towards any "skeptic" and I would expect nothing less from ya'll.

Yes, the classic response is offering a reward to those who can back up their BS.

Run, The Chief, Run! It's what people who propose their BS claims are valid do best when asked to back them up.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2011 - 02:12pm PT
OK The Chief, how about a new DMM cam? Come on, I'm just asking you to back up what you claim. Even making an attempt would be special.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2011 - 02:14pm PT
OK, you pass on trying to back anything up. I get it.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jun 15, 2011 - 02:22pm PT
Seriously dealing with the threat of climate change would require government to heavily regulate corporations and subsidize renewable energy. It would entail a strong international body, most likely boosting the power of the UN. It would bring an end to the inefficient and energy-wasting free-trade agenda, as localizing economies would become necessary to sustain communities. And, most importantly, confronting climate change demands addressing climate justice for developing nations suffering from the pollution of industrialized nations, or more simply, a redistribution of wealth from North to South.

This kind of writing does nothing to help. It gives fuel to the deniers that believe it's all a hoax or scam. It's an all or nothing approach that says we have to have international heavy regulations to do anything about it.

Any efforts to combat AGW can help. Just encouraging voluntary conservation can help.

If we got lucky and simply put research money into renewable/green energy sources we might find an energy source as cheap as fossil fuels and we wouldn't have to regulate anything.

What will probably happen is that when we see more actual negative quantifiable economic effects of AGW we will make cooresponding efforts to combat it.

pro-AGW agenda. What is that agenda?

He's ducked that question a number of times.

Anti AGW science poses a threat to all that the Pro AGWers seek.

I could see buying into the idea that some scientists and some politicians have something to gain from action on AGW. But what do "all" AGWers seek? What is their agenda? I don't stand to make a dime and I understand that my energy costs could be higher with action on AGW, so doing something about AGW could cost me. So why would I be "pro" AGW, it makes no sense.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jun 15, 2011 - 02:27pm PT
The fact that you and the others can't see how narrow and single minded you all are towards anyone that does not agree with you or the AGW agenda, says more than to the fact that this is all a perfect example of fanaticism, than anything else.

Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person unconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others originate those feelings.[1]

Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted unconscious impulses or desires without letting the conscious mind recognize them.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jun 15, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
Chief, you are putting the cart before the horse. Awareness of AGW came from science and then later people started talking about what should be done about it.

Personally I would rather put the focus of our efforts to combat it into renewable / green energy research. If the US took the lead in this WE could be the ones making huge amounts of money from energy instead of the middle east, etc.
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jun 15, 2011 - 02:50pm PT
This is an interesting article:

http://www.aceee.org/press/2010/04/americas-anemic-13-percent-economy-experts-warn-us-risks

I read on another site energy cost is about 9% of the economy.

Some quotes from the article above:

e U.S. economy remains only about 13 percent energy efficient. That still unacceptably high level of inefficiency either will be allowed to remain in place and therefore leave the U.S. mired in lackluster economic activity … or it will be tackled head-on, leading to new efficiency advances and unleashing robust future economic growth in the U.S. For example, Japan and several European countries are about 20% efficient, a factor of 1.5 higher than the U.S.

How big might the next round of potential energy efficiency be? If we invested in more energy productive technologies, energy efficiency investments can provide up to one-half of the needed greenhouses gas emissions reductions most scientists say are needed between now and the year 2050. And that gain in energy efficiency would not only mean reduced greenhouse gas emissions, it would result in lower energy bill for consumers.

Interesting. It seems investing in energy efficiency might be even more beneficial to the US economy than new energy sources.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2011 - 03:16pm PT
The fact that you and others on this thread that will not even contemplate the "other side's" view, speaks decibles [sic]. -- the Chief

You have zero idea of what I believe, what I "comtemplate," and what views I deem as valid. I simply asked you to back up one of your outlandish assertions. In response, all you can do is blather gibberish.

My response to that is to ignore your rantings--people who make stuff up and try to claim them as fact have little room for my time.
bookworm

Social climber
Falls Church, VA
Jun 15, 2011 - 05:36pm PT
when does skepticism stop being skepticism and become, well, truth?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/14/ice_age/

the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Jun 15, 2011 - 06:13pm PT
Skepticism is a healthy part of truth, it's denial that's a problem.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2011 - 06:39pm PT
Are you now asserting that everything that you have posted on this thread in regards to AGW is complete bullshet and not at all what you believe, contemplate nor are your valid views?

You are absolutely right. If you read what I wrote then indeed you would have an idea of what I view as being valid. So I misspoke (score 1 for you, The Chief).

However, I took offense to your blanket statement that AGW believers "will not even contemplate the 'other side's' view..."

I've read much of what AGW deniers say and I take those views into formulating my own views. Funny, you have convinced me that you yourself do not take into accout AGW-believer's views.

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 15, 2011 - 07:34pm PT
Chief, it seems from you previous post that your overriding opposition stems from you personal fear of the possibility that you and your wife, on limited budget, might be faced
with a "carbon tax" of some sort and undetermined amount.

I presume you have little income or assets to get by, and thus the fear of paying another tax.

This is a legitimate fear, personal fiscal preservation.

However, it has nothing to do with the actual "science" of climate change.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 15, 2011 - 07:58pm PT
Although sunspots themselves produce only minor effects on solar emissions, the magnetic activity that accompanies the sunspots can produce dramatic changes in the ultraviolet and soft x-ray emission levels.

Read more: http://solarscience.msfc.nasa.gov/SunspotCycle.shtml
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Jun 15, 2011 - 08:06pm PT
Reposting from the previous page, in hopes that the Chief sees this and confirms
that his personal limited finances are a legitimate reason for his fear of paying some tax.



Chief, it seems from you previous post that your overriding opposition stems from you personal fear of the possibility that you and your wife, on limited budget, might be faced with a "carbon tax" of some sort and undetermined amount.

I presume you have little income or assets to get by, and thus the fear of paying another tax.

This is a legitimate fear, personal fiscal preservation.

However, it has nothing to do with the actual "science" of climate change.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Jun 15, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
Norton - perhaps you'll tell us how much you've spent on carbon credits?


The carbon footprint of your existence makes a difference (it doesn't
really, but you think it does and that's what counts in the modern age of warmist thought crimes)
Lennox

climber
just southwest of the center of the universe
Jun 15, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
Don't confuse Chief with The Chief; those are two very different characters.
kunlun_shan

Mountain climber
SF, CA
Jun 15, 2011 - 10:48pm PT
^^ TFPU that article, Dr. F!

Very interesting story and studies. I've long wondered about the huge gap in public opinion about global warming/climate change, and how/why its become so political.

Was surprised to find the studies in Sociological Quarterly, that your story mentions, online for free:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/tsq.2011.52.issue-2/issuetoc
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