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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2018 - 02:47pm PT
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“There are no entities."
Unless you have slammed head on into the void, which for a time zeros out your personality, the "no entities" line will find no traction. A misconception, one frequently raised in Nature writing, is that those who have had boundary experiences in the wilds often come off as being "better than" those who have not had those experiences, or that those writing about those experiences seem to have religious airs.
In my experience, this is a certain giveaway that whoever acted or wrote in a way to foster that notion is quite mistaken. The void - or whatever label you want to use - destroys the very ego that would come back and rooster around as a sage, or spew "religious" choss. The dissolving of the "I" is rarely a permanent condition, but it humbles, rather than makes one "better than."
Nature doesn't give a damn. All people, big or small, "important" or nobody in particular, arrive without portfolio. The ones to listen to are those who return with nothing at all, including some elevated appraisal as an "entity" who has special knowledge, or some explanation. Descriptions are helpful, but there is nothing to explain.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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^^^"Just this morning someone made a joke that we should have a Godwin’s Law for scientific discussions, which is that if the discussion goes on long enough, in the end it will always be about funding in academia. There’s certainly some truth to this because the funding that we get, and how we get it, and who gets it, and how long we have it, has a huge influence on what research we make and also what we believe in eventually. Once you work on something for some years, you start believing in it."
The gal's got keen insight.
boundary experiences in the wilds
You turn a phrase nicely.
;>)
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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I'm just a drive-by poster here, replying to whatever I skimmed from the most recent page.
it’s a patchwork of ideas that this or that faction got through / published. There is no overall scientific group whose job it is to make sure that all disciplines’ theories fit together. Incommensurability.
The scientific community is more akin to an open-source software project than an empire building a single product under a single leadership. I'll be simplistic with a cathedral analogy. Most scientific groups work independently on their little brick in the cathedral, identify which other bricks it touches, what functions it serves in the structure, and describe it in more detail or point out why previous explanations are insufficient or inaccurate... over time this creates a more and more accurate map of what the cathedral and all it's parts look like.
Nobody is "in charge" of this process because it is too big for anyone to comprehend. There is no "master architect" that is conversant in the details of each part. There are groups that act as steering committees that greatly influence which areas are advanced in science. For example, there are different committees in the National Institute of Health, or the National Science Foundation in America that receive grant applications and decide which ones to fund. There are also private agencies like the American Cancer Society, or private for-profit companies like Amgen that have individuals and committees that review proposals and decide in which areas more money will be spent for research. In that sense, there is a high-level guidance of how much effort and energy to put into different research topics, but there is no centralized leader.
In terms of making sure all the scientific findings reconcile with each other... the scientific method naturally accommodates that. Scientists are motivated to identify inconsistencies or things that don't fit- such observations form the basis of new hypotheses to explain the new observations, and that is how science advances, develops more nuanced models that accommodate a broader range of circumstances and conditions.
I don't see what is the major concern or dissatisfaction that is being expressed here. What is wrong with this?
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Hey, NutAgain!
One concern is that very few people are looking between the disciplines to see if everything is coming together.
Once one spends the time and effort to establish his or her expertise, one can only talk fully with about 15-25 other academics in their area of expertise. A related issue is that expertise often tends to limit one’s ability to communicate with experts in other fields of study. You can look at some of the conversations on this thread. In business, it’s hard as hell to get folks from different functions to work with one another; they do so grudgingly. Each field of expertise tends to develop its own terms, metrics, concepts, values, and objectives.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Jogill: . . . it will always be about funding in academia.
Good point.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Hi MikeL... I suppose a lot of people might get complacent in their areas of expertise and settle down after they make a name for themselves. Labs that do this will shrink and die over time because they won't get renewed funding to pay for research after they have characterized their little area. Or, if the depths continue being interesting to a wider audience, some people will plumb those depths indefinitely and others will stitch together interesting intersections of different fields. From what I've seen in different industries, it seems the intersection of disciplines is often the sexy place to be in terms of popular research or ideas when seeking funding. Most of my career I rode the intersection of voice and data networks. My wife is exploring the intersection of two established fields within molecular biology, and finding cool novel stuff. Hybrid vigor!
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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The Eye of Nefertiti . . . from the center of a slight variation of the previous image, scaled up 800X.
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Thanks, John. Always appreciated on this thread just as an image alone. The interpretations are not necessary or needed IMO. The images trigger feelings, and maybe even thoughts. The technical parameters might be sort of interesting, but they would seem to serve and subordinate to the image. Explaining what the image IS, . . . (well, you know).
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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The mind is mysterious.
When I opened this page I glimpsed text briefly before the image:
The Eye of the Needle.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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The bust of Nefertiti is missing an eye. I found it, of all places in my math!
There's legitimate speculation the famous bust of the lady is a fake. It was conveniently discovered on the exact day a royal team visited the site. And its condition is astounding. A pro, who spent time in prison counterfeiting antiquities, is almost certain it is not the real deal.
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WBraun
climber
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Yer all prisoners of yer own minds.
This thread proves it.
Ya all can't focus and wander all over the place like riding a horse without any reins ......
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Ya all can't focus
There's no-thing to focus on.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Lots of symbolism can be read into John's latest. The eye of Nefertiti has a fish outline in its midst, an early symbol of Christianity. After that, a regression of ever deeper openings. The path to immortality lies not with mummies and the old religion but through the new ? Or perhaps it is that Christianity co-opted many earlier themes and the path is the same for all?
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WBraun
climber
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The path to immortality lies not with mummies and the old religion but through the new ?
There is no path to immortality.
The living entity is already eternally immortal.
Not knowing this is the greatest illusion and key to knowledge itself which the gross materialists always miss due to their illusionary bondage to the material world ......
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i-b-goB
Social climber
Wise Acres
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[Click to View YouTube Video]
Attics of My Life
In the attics of my life
Full of cloudy dreams; unreal
Full of tastes no tongue can know
And lights no eye can see
When there was no ear to hear
You sang to me
I have spent my life
Seeking all that's still unsung
Bent my ear to hear the tune
And closed my eyes to see
When there were no strings to play
You played to me
In the book of love's own dreams
Where all the print is blood
Where all the pages are my days
And all my lights grow old
When I had no wings to fly
You flew to me
You flew to me
In the secret space of dreams
Where I dreaming lay amazed
When the secrets all are told
And the petals all unfold
When there was no dream of mine
You dreamed of me
Songwriters: Jerry Garcia / Robert Hunter
I watched Chef's Table season 3 episode 1, last night and if you have Netflix it's worthy!
https://www.eater.com/2017/2/18/14653382/jeong-kwan-buddhist-nun-chefs-table
At the end of the episode, Kwan offers a message to the camera: “I make food as a meditation. I am living my life as a monk with a blissful mind and freedom. I wish you a healthy, happy life. Thank you.”
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Nice article on eater.com . Interesting how she talks about creativity and letting go of the ego as a necessity. Creativity from the empty stage (per JGill). She also had a poignant comment on not being your own hinderance "You must not be your own obstacle".
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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Kwan: “I make food as a meditation.”
One really should. The kitchen is an altar, where life is sacrificed.
(Who doesn’t like working in a kitchen?)
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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(Who doesn’t like working in a kitchen?)
The cook as opposed to a chef might ask how you imagine the work in a kitchen. The work involved in making a meal for the love of it or the work involved in getting paid for it? Can they be the same? Sure. Are they always the same? Rarely, in my experience. If you value food cooked with love can you tell if it is? How?
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Sometimes love is a bitter pill.
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