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doughnutnational
Gym climber
its nice here in the spring
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Jul 22, 2011 - 11:24am PT
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Thanks mooch I needed some hangers to place next to cracks that are kinda grainy.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Jul 22, 2011 - 11:55am PT
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Susu, I agree it's the negative press that really isn't needed and we've heard this tale too many times. If there's something new we all should know about it. In a way I've contributed to bringing it to the table, but I'm tired of reading about an area we all love, sounding like a schoolyard. If you can call them names you should at least be able to use their real names.
Donutnational eats bolts for breakfast.
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Grahm Doe
Sport climber
Just South Of Heaven
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Jul 22, 2011 - 02:29pm PT
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Judging by the email I just got from Jeff I can only assume they are talking about me. So here comes a sh** storm of controversy. I chipped a hold at the end of the year on a project route at Shuteye. Nothing I can say will probably help someone understand why I thought it was a good idea on this route. Especially on this forum. But, I can own up to it.
I will try to explain a little and then people can pick it apart, call me names and attack me. First off 99.9% of my routes have no chipping. I do usually clean and will even use a hammer to break hollow flakes so they won’t break on someone later. I will also comfortize holds if they have crystals that can be smoothed with a hammer. Every once in a very great while I come across a situation on a route where enhancing a hold (in my opinion) improves the climbing on the route. I realize this opinion is where I get into trouble with other climbers and their ethics. Many shake their head in disbelief. I guess you would have to try and climb it before and after to see.
In this instance an obvious water groove comes down a steep wall. The beginning 3o feet is fun plated climbing straight up to the water groove. Then the water groove slowly deepens as it ascends the wall. The first shallow portion of the water groove is where the crux section is, about 20 feet of small interspersed holds of easy 5.12 moves. Launching into this section was a single hard 5.13 or harder move. I enhanced one small knob by chipping out the top of it so it could be held. I tried to make it look and feel like the other knobs on the climb. I also wanted it to blend with the difficulty of the other moves and stand out as little possible. Way less rock was removed than is done to create a bolt hole or aid seam but it did alter the rock from its original state.
It also would have been possible to come in from the left on a different start, avoid that crux and continue up the climb. I thought the climbing going straight up was so fun and perfectly in line with the route that enhancing the little knob would make for a better climb than traversing across the wall to avoid it.
This action, in my opinion, was very minimal to the rock and made a much better climb. I know this raises all kinds of issues and tempers and I apologize for that. I prefer natural routes and almost all of my routes (well over 100) are natural in Shuteye. Every once in a great while I come across a situation where I think a route can be much better with a little tinkering. I know, this raises questions like, where does it stop, who are you to change the rock, and aren’t you making the climb worse not better, come into play. I don’t have all the answers. I have my own criteria and I am not going to try to convince people they should agree. But, I think very, very rarely that enhancing a hold can make a route climb better if it is done in a minimal way.
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this just in
climber
north fork
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Jul 22, 2011 - 03:12pm PT
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Wow, not cool at all Grahm, thanks for being honest, but there is no reason for chipping and you earn your reputation. What route?
Grahm, you are a friend and this doesn't change that, but I'm defenitely disappointed.
There you go Jeff and Dave and "Dave", it's on the table. I'm glad I know what happened, but you guys need to learn about some real life ethics.
My last 2 cents on the subject
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susu
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
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Jul 22, 2011 - 03:34pm PT
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Wow, can’t believe you admitted it. Thank you for that but only for that.
I wondered if it is truly that you don’t get it, or just don’t give a shitt. Now I know.
Can’t believe I actually felt sorry for you when you showed some contrition after receiving some bad press for getting called out on this before on rockclimbing.com and/or the first part of this thread that got nuked.
For the record, this sort of modification is every bit characteristic of rampant development, and a lot of folks sure wish it would stop. It is completely unethical, and you don’t deserve to have so much territory at your literal disposal.
As Justin says, I’m disappointed… I defended you as a nice guy, bc I thought you were. We would have liked to have a beer with you if we ran across you at a crag at the end of the day. But now it will always turn into a discussion about this stuff, and it’ll never be easy.
This is a very damning thing you are doing, and even if you don’t get it or disagree, please stop it bc it runs a high risk of ruining things for the rest of us.
Also, it’s a slippery slope. People who would look up to you will be following your footsteps in the future. Five.12s are going to get watered down to 5.11s, 11 to 10s, and on down the line. Sucks!
“Whatever happened to the mindset that we prepare ourselves for challenges in a rock climb instead of making the rock climb submit, and bringing the route down to a level we can already handle?”
For what it’s worth, Jeff has already done the true FFA of the route in question without the chiseled hold, straight up.
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mooch
Trad climber
Old Climbers' Home (Adopted)
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Jul 22, 2011 - 03:56pm PT
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I'm beyond numb. Especially after we've visited this all before. So, you just can't shake what your mentor Louie taught you, huh. Why doesn't it sink in that people love Shuteye for what it is, not what it should be to the selfish. This ain't no Riverside Quarry!! Fun?? "Fun" could have been the option of coming in from the left. Face it.....you're out numbered by the voices of disapproval. Get a clue and be a steward of good climbing ethics. 99.9%.....huh? I think you meant that as the percentage of folks who are against you chipping.
....but you guys need to learn about some real life ethics.
explain.
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Grahm Doe
Sport climber
Just South Of Heaven
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Jul 22, 2011 - 04:47pm PT
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So sorry you guys feel I let you down. If I could go back in time and not do it, I would. It seemed like a good idea at the time. Its definitely not worth the controversy when there is so many amazing natural lines to climb.
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Banquo
climber
Morgan Hill, CA (Mo' Hill)
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Jul 22, 2011 - 07:43pm PT
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Wow, somebody not only screwed the pooch but gives us the details.
How could anybody conclude that Shuteye is a sport climbing area?
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micronut
Trad climber
fresno, ca
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Jul 25, 2011 - 12:50am PT
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Bummer. I'm just a wanker 5.9 alpine climber, I will never climb 5.12, but I love the area and hate to hear about this. Chipping just doesn't ever sound ok.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
sorry, just posting out loud.
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Jul 25, 2011 - 02:02am PT
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Chipping is not ok.
Cleaning loose rock is acceptable.
The difference isn't that big, but there is a difference without question.
Graham, appreciate the honesty. Can we get you on the public record that you will not comfortize, enhance or chip any new holds on public lands (national forest, national park, etc) going forward? I'm not talking about removing loose rock.
Maybe folks will never fully appreciate one's internal motives when it comes to questions of style and purpose, but when it comes to public lands, and our ethical behavior, we have to require you to stop chipping or enhancing as you've described it. Of this there can be no argument. Ordinarily there is much speculation and no first hand knowledge about these types of incidents when discussed in a public forum, but with admission and honesty comes the responsibility to discontinue the practice.
I've only climbed in the area a couple times, so feel free to tell me to punt off as not understanding the locality. But I think that when it comes to access, setting a bad precedent of chipping on national forest is not the direction climbers should go in, whatever your stylistic proclivities.
So I'll be clear, Graham can we get your commitment not to chip any new holds/ehancements on the record publicly?
Graham, feel free to ping me on PM. We've met and you struck me as a reasonable person. I'm happy to discuss in person the ramifications and why I'm on the record here.
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doughnutnational
Gym climber
its nice here in the spring
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Jul 25, 2011 - 10:14am PT
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Maybe we should all chip in and buy the chipper a a pair of running shoes and he can join Mark Spencer the grid bolting guide book writer from the late 20th century. He'd be too busy training and logging his stats to climb any more that way.
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Tork
climber
Yosemite
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Jul 25, 2011 - 01:58pm PT
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Susu,
For the record I have not done the first ascent. I was able to get past the altered hold without using it but fell higher. Wasn't trying to snag a first, just knew it was doable by a mediocre climber without chipping.
Micronut and Munge,
Yours are the kind of responses I was expecting.
Dave Lane is a troll and a shitehead but he is a good guy and his reaction is understandable.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Jul 25, 2011 - 04:52pm PT
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Just seeing all this...I haven't been out much lately but was at fresno dome this weekend then see all this sh#t on the tacostand..anyhow, I posted this on the other thread too...
Man this is a bummer. The biggest reason is that it has happened before it was discussed and Grahm said he wasn't going to do it anymore. It's a bummer when someone who seems a really decent dude lies to everyone and goes back to his chipping ways. Bummer Grahm - bogus...
So Grahm, is it ok if Josh, Jeff and I chip on our 10ish-11ish? project casue Josh and I can't climb 11's so well?
Just a bummer.
kev
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Jul 25, 2011 - 10:23pm PT
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Still looking for more of a response from Grahm.
So what happened how is this different than the last time?
WHY would/should/can we believe you when you say you wish you could take it back? I just don't get it...
Did you think peeps wouldn't find out, so since no one knew it was ok?
If so that's f-ing lame since you agreed not to. The few times I've met you you've struck me as a nice stand up guy, but now it appears that your words can't be trusted.
I just don't get it...
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Slater
Trad climber
Central Coast
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Jul 28, 2011 - 02:27am PT
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I prefer a more private forum, and have spoken to Grahm already, numerous times voicing my disappointment. Chipping sucks. No matter who you are, it's wrong, always will be wrong. No justification or wiggle room. If a route doesn't go, then it doesn't go. Leave it be. Even if it never gets sent.
Sad week for Shuteye.
Just wanted to weigh in and make it public record.
I deffer to this essay...
http://mountaineers.org/nwmj/05/051_Ethics.html
Well worth your time. The authors note says a lot as well.
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zeker
Trad climber
bishop
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Jul 30, 2011 - 01:20am PT
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Mr.Doe, bottom line is no matter what we all may agree or disagree on in climbing ethics, chipping/enhancing any rock is way out of line and just simply uncalled for. Your multiple offenses and hence multiple apologies, are silly and getting offensive at this point. Chipping, especially in So.Yo, which is so rich with climbing history and first ascent crews of friends having accomplished so much in significant efforts keeping to ethical FA behaviors over the years, from Royal Robbins and crew to present day crews, ALL EXCEPT YOU seem respectful Personally, myself, Casey Yorkunas, Dave Lane and others who worked for Southern Yosemite Mountain Guides in the past, spent years in the mid 90's toiling on ground up first ascents with hand drills in tow, in So.Yo, and no matter what we were capable of or not, we never dreamed of chipping routes to bring them down to our level. What's the point of that man? I think I can speak for all involved, at least in our FA's, we never dreamed anyone would chip in So.Yo. Stop making apologies and just cut the crap man!
Sincerely,
Zeke Federman - My real name
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Jul 30, 2011 - 02:17am PT
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Thanks for that perspective, Zeke.
With all the previous discussion around this regional issue years ago on rc.com and the now defunct SSCA message board, around campfires, etc., I'm at a complete loss for words.
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Grahm Doe
Sport climber
Just South Of Heaven
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Aug 12, 2011 - 08:27pm PT
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Regardless of what views I may have about the subject, you guys are absolutely right. The agreed upon ethics for Shuteye is NO enhancing of holds.
Since this was agreed to a few years ago no one has enhanced any holds to my knowledge. Except for last year, when I screwed up and enhanced a small knob on my project and aggressively cleaned one other route. I haven’t changed the rock on any of my other routes. I won’t be altering any other holds including those by aggressive cleaning, and I haven’t since those routes last year. I shouldn’t have messed with that knob and I am trying to work with those who are upset to resolve the issue. For reference, the amount of rock removed from the knob wouldn’t fill a pen cap. Doesn’t make it right, just mentioning the scale of what we are talking about. No one else was involved with working on the route with me.
Kev - I wouldn’t chip that route you’re talking about, unless you enjoy getting emails telling you to go to hell. Nice guys can make mistakes too and I am sorry for mine.
Zeke – Will do! And I have been enjoying fa’ing some ground up routes with friends too.
If anyone wants to email me privately about this subject you can click on my user name to send me a private message. It’s obvious from other emails I have received that a few are very angry. I can discuss this issue more directly with local individuals, but not if it’s angry rants that aren’t going to be constructive.
We can share points of view, our personal stories, ask questions and leave the conversation with mutual respect. Will everyone’s minds be changed? Maybe not, but an angry interchange only alienates people and causes them to hold on more tightly to their opinions. A respectful, open conversation leads to better results.
But again, when it comes to Shuteye, we are in agreement about the areas ethics and I screwed up. All I can do is mend fences with those who are willing, move forward in a positive way and keep all my routes 100% natural at Shuteye.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Aug 17, 2011 - 02:35am PT
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So what's new?
Weekend report?
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SuperTopo on the Web
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Let us know!