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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 24, 2015 - 07:42pm PT
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And then there's maybe the wisest statement so far on the matter by eyonkee, saying that in spite of the interesting nature of these discussions and the logic of no free will, we still have to act as though there was such a thing.
Funny, i wonder if the wisest of neandrethal man sat around and wished FOR free-will?!
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Bushman
Social climber
The island of Tristan da Cunha
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Jan 24, 2015 - 08:07pm PT
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Who do you mean? The Neanderthals speaking at the Republican pre-election meeting in Houston today?
Would they be concerned at all with free will ?
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Jan 24, 2015 - 09:00pm PT
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If life as we know it here on earth started here on earth and no where else in the universe. The 'Can-Do Ability' that is being talked about couldn't have rised without the proper elements in motion. Elements can veer from their anticipated trajectory. Is that change by 'will' or by 'choice'?
The Question is; at what point did choice enter the solar system?Italic Text
Blue, I do not mean to pick on you, but to use your most lucid points as perhaps a jumping off place to develop some of these excellent points a bit further. Thank you for your comments.
Blue, first of all, algorithms can have myriad sets of variables built into the structure of the operation. So, no, algorithms are not fixed, but for purposes of this discussion, perhaps someone wishes to posit a fixed set.
(And, I wrote that paper almost 40 years ago, and I am sure there is a copy with the nuns; they never throw away anything. I only just resurrected the concept about a year ago, and have begun exploring its process in more detail.
Under that process, which I call Cooperative Determinism, elements would veer off, especially when encountering, say, photons. We know this happens, anyway, such as with photosynthesis. But there are also cosmic encounters, which we also know to be a fact, and those would have some—perhaps presently imperceptible—trajectory-altering impact where they, ahem, impact.)
If the Question is "when did Choice enter the Solar System?", I think it more likely we might want to ask "when did Choice enter the Universe?" unless there is a reason to focus solely on this Solar System. And that may be because you are positing the limitation of Human life to Earth. Is this the reason?
We do not know that life as we know it has not started elsewhere in the Universe: we have hardly done any definitive survey work yet. Or is there something I don't know that has happened? Or are we merely accepting the proposition of unique Human consciousness? No, I don' think so. Cats were mentioned.
But I am greatly enjoying this discussion of Free Will and Determinism, and again suggest that there may be middle ground we are overlooking.
Hilarious commentary from some of you, thank you. I laughed and laughed. :) This is a fun thread.
Kindest regards,
feralfae
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 24, 2015 - 10:42pm PT
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And then there's healyje:
wisdom is simply what we make of knowledge + experience. One doesn't 'triumph' over the other - one just acts wisely or unwisely in the face of what we know. Definitely a statement of rationality gone amok, especially in the context of heart vs brain as the center of human consciousness.
[ People, take some frigging anatomy, you might as well be saying your right calf is the center of consciousness. Crikey. ]
Wisdom has a component of compassion to it, which goes beyond making a rationally wise decision. I never said it didn't. One would hope compassion and empathy would play a role in acting wisely. However, it should also be noted that, in the wrong measure, they can just as easily contribute to one acting without adequate objectivity and thus, unwisely.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 25, 2015 - 07:18am PT
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"People, take some frigging anatomy..."
lol
A recent poll indicates that two thirds of Americans (still) "believe in" the supernatural (e.g., intervening supernatural forces or supernatural beings or supernatural lives).
The last couple pages here certainly reflect this. Is it more comical or tragic? :(?? :)?? I don't know, I go back n forth. :)
"People, take some frigging anatomy..."
No sh#t. And throw in some chemistry, cellular biology, too; along with physics, less the speculative, rarefied, far out black holes and string theory kind ala Stephen Hawking, but more the practical, basic engineering physics kind that familiarizes a person with the basic energy, work and power forms and forces that he encounters in everyday life. (You know, the kind that keeps skyscrapers up, the kind that allows airplanes to fly, the kind that runs your computers at nanosecond speed, the kind that keeps climbers safe.)
What's so glaring here is everyone's playing teacher. (Need to play teacher? Need to be validated?) Every one. Teacher in human functioning. Human functioning. Merely the most complicated system (of processes and dynamics) on earth. Yet few here, it is so crystal clear, are actually operating (i.e., teaching) off the basics of what's actually going on "under the hood." Who would take their car that is having engine trouble to a mechanic who doesn't look under the hood? or who isn't fluent in what's going on "under the hood." lol ... or their computer that's messed up to a computer mechanic who has little or no expertise... better, little or no "feel" ... for its underlying hardware and software (merely the foundational basis of operation).
EDIT By "every one" I meant everyone over the last couple pages is all.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jan 25, 2015 - 07:28am PT
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Lol ^^^ this coming from the loudest PREACHER on the taco
edit, sorry you got in the way dingus
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 25, 2015 - 07:32am PT
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Folks need to defer to expertise once in awhile, is all. To put it somewhat differently... there is an art or skill to knowing when it's time to defer to expertise. It's the 21st century after all, there is a great deal of it out there. Even in science and engineering, too. :)
(Don't you hate it when you have a whole paragraph written, you hit a wrong key and it all disappears? That ever happen to you guys? lol!)
A great read (study) that bridges the sciences, arts and humanities by a self-identified scientist/artist/humanist is The Accidental Universe, by Alan Lightman. Anyone else here read it? Good stuff.
(It's a mystery to me where I got wind of this book and made note of it. Any chance it was one of you guys? If yes, please let me know. I'll try to search the site to see as well.)
(I just did a site search. I guess my ref wasn't anyone here. So it remains a mystery.)
http://www.salon.com/2011/10/02/how_science_and_faith_coexist/
.....
I think it's time to start a new thread as this one has 2,000 plus posts making it difficult to save as a backup.
What do you say, Jan? Anyone? I don't know, something like "Science, Religion, Belief" would be keeping it fresh, I would think. :)
(Otherwise, speaking for myself I won't have much incentive to post anything thoughtful or in-depth or lengthy. Perhaps that's just me, though.)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 25, 2015 - 07:43am PT
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Yes, Blu, lol!
Because at least this "mechanic" has had at least a few courses "under the hood" so to speak about the system in question. :)
.....
Here, it's such a gem it's worth preserving...
"Lol ^^^ this coming from the loudest PREACHER on the taco" -Blu
silly rabbit
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 25, 2015 - 07:47am PT
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thought without words
Consciousness.
Without it there would be absolute nothing .....
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 25, 2015 - 07:51am PT
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Biggest preacher is the Fruitman.
He's so paranoid and twisted it's pathetic ....
OMG !!!! they they believe in the supernatural !!!!!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jan 25, 2015 - 07:59am PT
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I've got to rush off but I do want to say in reply to this:
Well, given the the entire "context of heart vs brain as the center of human consciousness" is romantic nonsense (and that's putting it kindly), I'd have to agree.
[ People, take some frigging anatomy, you might as well be saying your right calf is the center of consciousness. Crikey. ]
Haven't you guys ever heard of symbolism?
Do you really think I don't know the difference between heart and brain tissue?
Sometimes I wonder!
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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Jan 25, 2015 - 08:00am PT
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Dingus,
Interesting question.
I just finished an interesting read: The Talking Ape by R. Burling. While reading the book I kept wondering, asking the question can we have thinking, self-awareness, consciousness without language?
The author did cover "gesticulation" such as a baby poking at it's mother's breast in search of food, as a form of language without words.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 25, 2015 - 08:15am PT
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Tvash: Given that we are biological information processing machines . . . .
This is a really tired metaphor, Tvash.
It could be useful to question the assumptions underlying the metaphor. For example, what is “information,” and what is “processing?” It seems that ultimately, in this day and age, both get reduced to numbers. (Where’s Largo?) And that operationalization presents an even more pervasive metaphor: math as a universal language. As I’ve attempted (perhaps poorly) to point out to Jgill (and as Ed may have done with reference to Godel's work), all languages / math are problematical inasmuch as they are inconsistent / contradictory.
We could use some other metaphors for life than “information processing.” The metaphor appears to be a sign of the times, not fully accurate or complete.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 25, 2015 - 08:20am PT
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(I see no one has attempted to answer the question why we MUST act as though we have free will. )
(Illusions must be kept alive.)
(The ego is the most powerful force in reality. It keeps the known universe alive.)
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 25, 2015 - 08:23am PT
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"This is a really tired metaphor, Tvash." -MikeL
LOL!
Asserted from someone who's had HOW MANY COURSES (incl hands-on lab experience) in information theory from the electronics engineering computer science department? lol
Asserted from someone who's had HOW MANY COURSES (incl hands-on lab experience) in signal transduction and control theory from a neurobiology department? lol
You are one weird dude. At least as a poster.
Your forewarned though. Brace yourself. It's the information age. Your "tired metaphor" is only going to grow ever stronger, ever more popular, at least with the educated, in the coming decades. Sorry, man.
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Byran
climber
San Jose, CA
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Jan 25, 2015 - 09:10am PT
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Some of our thoughts take the form of language, some don't.
Close your eyes and imagine your in the Valley looking up at Yosemite Falls.
Now in this brief thought you just had, was it daytime or night, and how do you know? Is it because the words "sunny" or "dark" popped into your head, or was your thought actually a mental image of the falls which you are just now translating into language. What did the waterfall sound like? Did it sound like the words "rushing water" or did it just sound like rushing water.
Ever had a moment when you had something you wanted to say but couldn't find the words?
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 25, 2015 - 09:30am PT
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HFCS:
My educational background is cognitive science and decision sciences. They amount to the theoretical parts of your engineering application parts. Theoretically, "the information age" is a bit dated. Models that emphasize the social parts (social networking, crowd sourcing, ethics, etc.) now seem to be in the lead.
Go and learn something you don't know anything about.
About the time that anyone truly becomes an expert in anything, their discipline begins to give way to another emergent view (in art, science, social studies, doesn't matter). Although it's certainly possible to develop expertise and stay near the top in one's field, It's almost impossible to stay current in-the-now which is protestant of field. Impermanence is everywhere in everything.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 25, 2015 - 09:36am PT
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Notice every post HFCS does is littered with "lol"
Something seriously wrong there.
Insecurity .....
Otherwise why so much drama on academics and anonymity ...
The puffed up overblown academic bubble boy ........
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jan 25, 2015 - 09:49am PT
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"My educational background is cognitive science." -MikeL
Excellent. You've had basic courses then in neurobiology or brain science? and others in basic electrical communications (circuitry, signal processing)?
Could you then please list a few of those to give me a better understanding of your cognitive science background and where you're coming from and what your overall direction here is. Because I just don't get it in the aftermath of trying to make sense of your posts. Eg, the last one where you refer to our biological information processing nature as "metaphor" - a "tired" one no less.
Claim: We are clearly "biological information processing systems."
This is just a CORE principle of our biology. Yet your posts time and again seem to piss on it.. along with many other indisputable CORE principles of very basic biology not to mention a bunch of everyday common sense items too.
If we were not at base information processing systems... and exceptionally good ones... we'd be up the proverbial creek without a paddle... both operationally in everyday real time and historically, in evolutionary time.
Insofar as you have had these and other courses pertaining to cognitive science and human functioning, surely you must know your posts do not reflect the modern understanding as revealed by the sciences and as taught in colleges in the engineering, biological and medical schools. Quite the contrary in fact, they are seriously aberrant, contrarian, counterproductive to comprehension, and last but not least, INSULTING again and again to anyone who values science, the science community and science education... and doubly so, I'll assert, to anyone (yes like me) whose life experience is in these areas.
Please, tell me where I'm going wrong or where I'm off-base here. Thanks in advance.
.....
WBraun, you're such a flunkie.
(I'm just going to call it as it is. As it's about time.)
A "dipshit" flunkie.
These subjects are my work (it will be known soon enough). That's my excuse, what's yours, flunkie?
You and blu are such disruptors here. That's the truth of it.
If there's any bad karma here, you bring it on yourself.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 25, 2015 - 09:57am PT
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Yep .... puffed up, you forgot to do your "lol" ^^^^
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