Rancher +Militia vs BLM,trouble on the range.(OT)

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Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:02pm PT
Mr Kos writes:

"Chaz, if you really want to have a conversation, you'll need to change your ratio of statements vs. questions."



I'll take that as "I don't know", which makes two of us.

I'm wondering now how this dispute ended up in Federal court to begin with. Someone had to sue for something, and I doubt it was Bundy.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:03pm PT
The reason they now ARM IRS AGENTS is the plan to use those in similar ways against others as well. Why the hell else would they arm such people? This -not so far from things going on in such places as N Korea or Russia.
More whacko paranoia.
Promulgated by that idiot Ron Paul (or is he just a blatant liar?)
Explained and debunked here:
http://www.factcheck.org/2010/03/irs-expansion/
In a March 22 interview with Fox Business anchor David Asmam, Rep. Ron Paul said, "Just think about it — 16,500 armed bureaucrats coming to make this program work." Rep. Paul’s wildly false claim appears 3 minutes and 51 seconds into the interview, which Fox posted on YouTube.
Of course this nonsense is in the context of Socialist Obamacare.
In fact, the only IRS employees who are authorized to carry firearms are "special agents," who are sworn law enforcement officers who work on criminal cases. As of last year there were only 2,725 of those, making up just under 3 percent of all IRS employees. So even if thousands of new IRS workers were actually hired, very few of them, if any, would be "armed bureaucrats."
In fact, as previously mentioned, the bill signed into law specifically waives any criminal penalties for individuals who refuse to obtain coverage and also refuse to pay the tax.

So kiddies, do your homework after you listen to Faux News as a large portion of it is drivel. And the rest is Pablum.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:08pm PT
The information about the court hearings is in the public domain Chaz. It has also been referenced and linked on this thread several times.
Your question smacks of disingenuousness. .
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:08pm PT
Philo doesn't know either.

I didn't expect anything intelligent out of Philo. This is just grab-ass for him.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:11pm PT
you all are missing the point here.

it's about proportionality
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:12pm PT
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:13pm PT
blahblah

bank accounts: That's pretty obvious. Do you think the Feds would have made such a big show if they could have taken liquid assets of anything like comparable worth? They're not entirely stupid and have many ways of getting to your cash.

farm implements: see bank accounts, above. Or have a look at Bundy's ranch on Google Earth or on any of the news videos. Decent little place, on the Virgin River, plenty of water (whose water?), couple of dozen acres in watermelons, a few horse corrals, couple of trucks.
So you're suggesting to take his means of making a living?

foreclose: yeah, might maybe get $300K. But run him and his family off their ancestral home? I'd call that a last resort.

taking the cattle made perfect sense from the Fed point of view. their only beef (ha ha) was the non-payment of grazing fees for over 20 years. Take the beef, sell them. Get most of their $$ due and get the cattle off the land they don't want cattle on anyway.
That doesn't make sense?

EDIT:
Chaz, go back to the early pages in this thread. Plenty of links. Including to the 1993 district court decision that denied EVERY one of Bundy's claims.
Or just Google Bundy
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:15pm PT
If you are way behind on your pickemup truck payments they don't repossess your microwave oven.



I hardly count a mellon patch farmed since the 40s "ancestral lands".
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:22pm PT
Maybe because the remedy prescribed by the court called for removal of the cows instead of "crippling Bundy's business."

Weren't you the one just complaining about out of control government?

I gotta tell you blah, you aren't inspiring much confidence in your your knowledge of the law or skills in argument. If you really are a lawyer, maybe it is best that you stay anonymous.

Kos--standard remedy in any commercial dispute is an award of damages (i.e., money). An injunction is generally considered to be more intrusive than a damages award. I have no idea if the BLM was operating pursuant to an injunction, but that is what a lawyer would call a "remedy prescribed by the court" that called for an affirmative action other than an award of damages.
In any event, do you think the removal of the cattle in fact "crippled Bundy's business"?

The events that took place at the Bundy ranch nicely illustrate why damages are the standard remedy, and injunctions are extraordinary (although I don't know that the BLM was acting pursuant to an injunction).

Thanks for your advice to remain anonymous--you should consider that yourself--remember the near panic you reacted with when I told you I looked at your patent (and thus learned your semi-secret identity).

Did you ever ask an HP patent lawyer or agent whether he or she names bosses as inventors on patent applications when they haven't made an inventive contribution to the claimed invention? Oh I forgot--you don't need to; you're an expert on patent law by virtue of being a named inventor on one now-expired patent (that you admit is almost certainly invalid--so good job on that one).

Edit:
taking the cattle made perfect sense from the Fed point of view. their only beef (ha ha) was the non-payment of grazing fees for over 20 years. Take the beef, sell them. Get most of their $$ due and get the cattle off the land they don't want cattle on anyway.
That doesn't make sense?

HT--we can disagree as to whether the Fed collecting debts the way it normally does (garnishment/levy/foreclosure, and in fact negotiated settlements based on the foregoing powers) was more or less reasonable than the paramilitary operation, but I appreciate your polite response.
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:22pm PT
Day off from polishing bullets Ron?


Hey Blahblah why don't you do your own research into the court proceedings instead of asking spurious question with which to cast doubts on facts already presented.

Instead of doubt by assumption followed by blatant misdirection why not do some researching then get back to us.
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:34pm PT
Hey Blahblah why don't you do your own research into the court proceedings instead of asking spurious question with which to cast doubts on facts already presented.

Instead of assuming do some researching then get back to us.

That is a fair point, expect that my questions aren't "spurious," but rather are what we all should be asking, along with similar questions such as why the feds didn't arrest protesters who were apparently interfering with fed operations at gunpoint. (Oh maybe Kos figured that one out too--he reminded us that lots of crimes are committed everyday, and so it's not reasonable to think that every criminal will be arrested. That must be it.)
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
Blahblah you do seem to be being deliberately thick headed. Have you ignored the fact that the Feds did not make arrests of heavily armed protesters to avoid a potential blood bath.
Would you not commend that restraint on the part of the autorities? Or are you secretely hoping to make the idiotic point that armed militias are the way to stand up to government overreach?
blahblah

Gym climber
Boulder
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:44pm PT
Send me a PM, and I'll send you my home address and invite you over for dinner. It's a sincere offer.

Thanks--never been to Temucla so I don't think I'll be able to take you up on it, but appreciate it.
I read your comments as going on an attack mode against me for whatever reason, and I responded in kind--probably a mistake. Each day I post here I try to remind myself not to get personal--many days I fail!

If you ever care who I am, send me PM and I'll tell you, and you'll see I'm who I claim to be (random intellectual property lawyer in Boulder). (But you'll need to give me a heads up that you sent me a PM--they go to an email account I don't regularly monitor.)


Blahblah you do seem to be being deliberately thick headed. Have you ignored the fact that the Feds did not make arrests of heavily armed protesters to avoid a potential blood bath.
Would you not commend that restraint on the part of the autorities? Or are you secretely hoping to make the idiotic point that armed militias are the way to stand up to government overreach?

I will agree with you (even on the thick headed part!) if the protesters are in fact arrested for their conduct. Then I'll admit that it was a good strategy on the feds part: diffuse the situation, then get the people who should be got in due course.
But if there are no arrests related to this incident, you will admit that may indicate that there's something fishy going on?
philo

Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
Apr 25, 2014 - 02:46pm PT
Don't worry the NSA monitors it for you.


This is the real fight for patriots and it won't require guns or bloodshed,
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Apr 25, 2014 - 03:05pm PT
But if there are no arrests related to this incident, you will admit that may indicate that there's something fishy going on?
Or that the Feds bungled it? Occam's Razor

Isn't it too bad they backed down? They had the authority to arrest everyone who was preventing them from doing their job. They also had the authority to shoot back if fired upon.
Should they have expected dozens of "militia" men, women and children to load up their weapons and come to the (illegal) defense of a two bit tin horn freeloader?
Rhetorical question: obviously they should have.
They underestimated the armed opposition and backed down without anyone firing a shot. Of course out here in the Wild Wild West we hope every dispute will end up with bullets and blood.

At least they handled it better than Ruby Ridge or Waco.
HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
Ron said
edit: and to whomever replied about the arming of IRS agents,, since when do they need fire arms to levy bank accounts.. They used NONE when they levied mine, they simply did it over the internet and my account. And in over 20 years they COULDNT do the same with Bundy?? Anyone believing that should look at my beachfront in Omaha for sale..


Haha oh god the truth comes out. One angry old white tax evader defending another.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Apr 25, 2014 - 04:15pm PT
The Feds handled it perfect, by the book, no bloodshed, nobody got hurt...

now the Feds can let those guys hang out by the road for days until they get tired and go home to their wimmin, who are also good as human shields, double duty you know

everybody cools down, then the Feds come in at night and round up the cows, off to the
slaughter house to be sold and proceeds used to pay back grazing fees

Bundy goes back to selling watermelons, and has a big lien filed against him

its all over

HighDesertDJ

Trad climber
Apr 25, 2014 - 04:21pm PT
Ron posted
Calling me a tax EVADER makes you a loud liar HD. I NEVER EVADED anything in my life. FYI i had an amended return the IRS seems to have failed to take into account, and im STILL awaiting a review of this over a year later. I was promised one in 6 months. So youve taken the ball and ran for a touchdown on the wrong end of the field.. Feel FOOLISH,, you should....

Yeah the IRS helped themselves to your bank account because they know you said mean things about the President.

"Why do the Feds feel like they have to respond to everything with SWAT teams?"

*turns around and peddles arms to people who hate the Feds*
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 25, 2014 - 04:23pm PT
Full video, not the edited version, make up your own mind.

..."let me tell you about the Spanish people"....http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/04/25/infowars-bundy-tape-was-edited-to-exclude-his-pro-black-pro-mexican-comments/
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Apr 25, 2014 - 04:47pm PT
Ya bet ya Dingus. See, when I heard that clip from Bundy (I read it actually) I too wrote if off as "Racist Prick". Now I find out that the news edited the video. Which should surprise no one. I don't think dude is any less of a nutjob, but really dislike being intentionally lied too via omission. I'm use to it from the Government, but the news is kind of hit and miss. This time they missed it. Thus - I pitched out the full version so you and other Supertopoians can examine it in it's entirety and have a more edumacated discourse. I don't consider the full version a "racist defense" as you say, and as it appears you didn't watch it, I guess you don't give a f*#k anyway. But why not be honest and at least try to discuss the facts? The facts in this case being more than a short blurb in the news taken out of a long rant:-) They could have and should have printed it all, and not the single damning sentence that had you, me and about everyone going tsk tsk tsk and seeing racism.
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