Occupy Wall Street Thread Reposted

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Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 28, 2011 - 01:26pm PT
Actually Jeff, OWS DOES offer some "solutions".

I am sure you know this from your readings of their position statements.


Now that you have learned how to do internet searches just recently, surely you know this
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 28, 2011 - 03:01pm PT
from the lA Times:

The complaint accuses the city of engaging in "arbitrary and capricious action in violation of the 1st and 14th Amendments by first approving the Occupy presence for 56 days before suddenly revoking permission through the unilateral action of defendants."

The protesters' complaint points out that the City Council passed a resolution of support for the protesters and states that an aide to Villaraigosa told two of the plaintiffs, protester Mario Brito and Jim Lafferty of the National Lawyers Guild, that the municipal code section prohibiting overnight camping in city parks would not be enforced.

The complaint also pointed out that the city has made other exceptions to the anti-camping provision, including for people waiting at Exposition Park to be eligible for free medical services and for an estimated 500 fans of the "Twilight" vampire movies who "camped out on the sidewalks of Westwood Village for several days to be first in line for the midnight showing of the first 'Twilight' sequel."

Earlier this month, protesters did give notice that they would seek an emergency restraining order on Nov. 18. But the issue was put on hold when protesters failed to show up in court to file for the request.

On that day, civil rights lawyer Carol Sobel, a legal advisor for Occupy protests across the country, appeared in court and said she planned to argue that the protesters seeking the injunction did not represent Occupy L.A. Sobel is listed as the attorney on the new complaint.

Villaraigosa and Beck said that the 12:01 a.m. deadline marked the time when the encampment became illegal, not when eviction would occur.

Although protesters said they were happy with the outcome, officials stressed that the encampment cannot continue.

"We will enforce the park closure," Villaraigosa said in an interview with KTLA-TV. "We thought talking through this was the best way to proceed and we've done that. But it's become crystal clear … that it wasn't sustainable to be there indefinitely."

Villaraigosa praised the protesters for shining a light on problems facing the middle class and forcing people to listen.

"My hope is that we will be able to conclude this chapter peacefully," he said.

JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 28, 2011 - 03:09pm PT
I am sure you know this from your readings of their position statements.

Norton, I have great trouble determining a position for OWS, partly because of the anarchy implicit in the movement. Having a position implies the existence of someone who can determine that position. As a mathematician, I see no proof of the existence or uniqueness of any OWS position.

John
Sparky

Trad climber
vagabond movin on
Nov 28, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/28/9067808-fed-lent-banks-nearly-8-trillion-during-crisis-report-shows
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Nov 28, 2011 - 05:45pm PT
Lovegasoline,

Believe it or not, you and the Wall Street Journal see eye-to-eye in celebrating the court's rejection of the SEC's proposed settlement, although your world views differ.

The Journal thinks the SEC position was nonsense from the beginning, and wants it defeated rather than allowing the SEC to save face in a purported "settlement."

If what the SEC said was remotely true, this settlement is an outrage to those relying upon SEC regulation. Otherwise, the suit was a bunch of baloney, and the "settlement" represents nothing more than extortion. Either way, the SEC ends up looking rather bad.

On an unrelated note, Norton's statement implies that there exists a unique position of OWS. Existence and uniqueness are the sorts of things I used to look for and prove (or disprove) in the days when I indulged in mathematics.

Of course, whether I exist, or am merely some metaphysical entity (like Citicorp) doesn't change the implication of Norton's statement. How can one determine the position of OWS on anything?

John
TKingsbury

Trad climber
MT
Nov 28, 2011 - 05:52pm PT
You've posted the 'LASD Heat Ray' joke 30+ times...give it a rest...
CrackAddict

Trad climber
Canoga Park, CA
Nov 28, 2011 - 06:03pm PT
every "movement" has its fringe elements who are there for the fun of being in a group

and have no real interest in the meaning behind the protest/movement

You mean there is a "non-fringe" wing of OWS?
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Nov 28, 2011 - 06:06pm PT
John, given that there is no leadership, no single or group spokespeople for OWS,
then YES, you are correct that OWS has no "position" that can be defined/determined.


However, and I think you know this, there certainly is a consensus of thought that does
seem to define the OWS people's mentality, frame of mind.

That consensus appears to me to be that there is an aggravating disparity between the ultra haves and the have nots in America.

That the "ultra haves", called the 1%, are "favored", favored with golden parachutes, huge incomes, as wealthy individuals, and are again "favored" by government (TARP) bailing them out and making them more than "whole" again when they "fail", the obvious example being the 08 financial derivative (wall street creations).

John, it seems to me a strong general sense that many Americans just don't like the growing gap between the "classes", very human emotion, and are simply expressing themselves by protesting.

Given that , and only that above perception, they are protesting what they see as a fundamental, and celebrated, "unfairness" in American's capitalism.

These people, by far, ARE employed, and are really just regular working people, and they fully know that capitalism provided the structure for their own incomes,
They are NOT anti-capitalism, they just don't like some things about it.

They have no leadership or spokespeople and very little organization, they just hold rallies in various cities.

VERY unfortunately, the "spirit" of this sentiment is now badly corrupted by fringe elements who join the protests for other reasons, just as stupid young men go to English soccer games to be seen, and raise hell.

It all gets thrown into the public protest mix, and the national media focuses on what rivets the viewer for advertising dollars, the sensational and the emotional.

And so the media concentrates not on the above "message"(income/asset favoritism,etc) but on the actual protesters in all their good and bad, and the bad ones tarnish the message, just like the gun toting fringe did to the Tea Party "image".

You have asked me to better define how i see this, this is my honest assessment.



bparry

Trad climber
New Haven, CT
Nov 29, 2011 - 08:19am PT
Right on Cragman/Marybeth Hicks.

Nice article, occupy reality.
dirtbag

climber
Nov 29, 2011 - 09:52am PT
It's official. Cragman is a grumpy old man.

"HEY YOU KIDS, GET OFFA MY LAWN!"
WBraun

climber
Nov 29, 2011 - 10:05am PT
Cragman

That will apply to 1% of the OWS.

But Marybeth Hicks missed the real point of OWS and the whole thing went right over the top of her head.

And that happened because that 1% of the OWS took all the limelight and focus which sidetracked and screwed their whole movement.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 29, 2011 - 11:24am PT
They need to dump that bullshit "99%" canard, and admit that they actually are more like 46%.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2011/11/occupy-field-poll.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+lanowblog+%28L.A.+Now%29

k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 29, 2011 - 11:53am PT
Here’s the financial overview: the top 1% of Americans now take in more than 25% of the nation’s income and control at least 40% of its wealth. (A quarter of a century ago, the figures were 12% and 33%.) To make it into that top 1%, according to economist Emmanuel Saez, your family needs to make a minimum of $368,238 a year (based on 2008 income figures); for the 15,000 families that make up the top .01%, average annual income is $27,342,212.

Big deal.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 29, 2011 - 12:07pm PT
A sinister bill has quietly been introduced, so expansive in scope and dangerous in nature that it makes the PATRIOT Act look like the Bill of Rights.

This bill, the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) for Fiscal Year 2012, or S. 1253, has received tragically sparse coverage and I must admit that I was not aware of it until a reader emailed me about it.

If you think the PATRIOT Act is bad, just wait until you check out sections 1031, 1032, 1033, and 1036 of this horrific bill.


S. 1253 will allow indefinite military detention of American civilians without charge or trial
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 29, 2011 - 01:21pm PT
All across the country, a war is being waged. This isn't a battle over parks and tents and sleeping bags. Though many of our leaders don't seem to realize it, this is a battle about their credibility, about how they represent us, about whom their real allegiance is to. Their misguided response to the Occupy protests has actually proved the point of the protesters more than any sign or chant could.

The Occupy movement has been a test -- a national MRI -- that has allowed us to check in on the health of our democracy by allowing us to see what's going on underneath the surface of America's power structures. And the results are dire. What the movement, and the response to it, has shown is a government almost completely disconnected from those it purports to represent.

Let's see. Without the movement, Congress has an approval rating of NINE PERCENT. Gosh, thank heavens for the movement, who will raise the awareness of the population, that has NO IDEA that the gov't is dysfunctional!

We're saved!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Nov 29, 2011 - 01:34pm PT
A sinister bill has quietly been introduced, so expansive in scope and dangerous in nature that it makes the PATRIOT Act look like the Bill of Rights.

This bill, the National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA) for Fiscal Year 2012, or S. 1253, has received tragically sparse coverage and I must admit that I was not aware of it until a reader emailed me about it.

If you think the PATRIOT Act is bad, just wait until you check out sections 1031, 1032, 1033, and 1036 of this horrific bill.



SEC. 1031.

(a) In General- The Armed Forces of the United States are authorized to detain covered persons captured in the course of hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40) as unprivileged enemy belligerents pending disposition under the law of war.

(b) Covered Persons- A covered person under this section is any person, including but not limited to persons for whom detention is required under section 1032, as follows:

(1) A person who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored those responsible for those attacks.

(2) A person who was a part of or substantially supported al-Qaeda, the Taliban, or associated forces that are engaged in hostilities against the United States or its coalition partners, including any person who has committed a belligerent act or has directly supported such hostilities in aid of such enemy forces.

(d) Constitutional Limitation on Applicability to United States Persons- The authority to detain a person under this section does not extend to the detention of citizens or lawful resident aliens of the United States on the basis of conduct taking place within the United States except to the extent permitted by the Constitution of the United States.


SEC. 1032.
(b) Requirement Inapplicable to United States Citizens- The requirement to detain a person in military custody under this section does not extend to citizens of the United States.

SEC. 1033.
(e) Definitions- In this section:

(1) The term `individual detained at Guantanamo' means any individual located at United States Naval Station, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as of October 1, 2009, who--

(A) is not a citizen of the United States or a member of the Armed Forces of the United States; and

SEC. 1036.

(a) In General- Not later than 90 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Secretary of Defense shall submit to the appropriate committees of Congress a report setting forth the procedures for determining the status of persons captured in the course of hostilities authorized by the Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40) for purposes of section 1031.
Which once again said:

The authority to detain a person under this section does not extend to the detention of citizens or lawful resident aliens of the United States on the basis of conduct taking place within the United States except to the extent permitted by the Constitution of the United States.

SEC. 1035

a) .....for individuals detained at United States Naval Station, Guantanamo Bay, .......

which, once again, was defined in Sec 104:

(e) Definitions- In this section:

(1) The term `individual detained at Guantanamo' means any individual located at United States Naval Station, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, as of October 1, 2009, who--

(A) is not a citizen of the United States or a member of the Armed Forces of the United States

So, don't see the problem that is so alarming?
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Nov 29, 2011 - 05:51pm PT
On my travel cross country this last month, I came across a woman who had been with the Occupy DC group for a month or so and was heading back home. We had some discussion on the OWS movement. She referenced a quotation"
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
Mohandas Gandhi
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 29, 2011 - 07:03pm PT
To make it into that top 1%, according to economist Emmanuel Saez, your family needs to make a minimum of $368,238 a year

well, my wife and I are not quite in the 1%. Maybe we are in 2 or 3. and as much as i can sympathize with some of the OWS idea's we did not get to the 2-3% by bitching or protesting...it was a lot of education (the right kind that is marketable) and hard work.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Nov 29, 2011 - 07:06pm PT
Hey Hawkeye, ever consider spec building? I can build a hell of a green structure.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Nov 29, 2011 - 07:32pm PT
brandon, your work is outstanding! right now lots of money going to three kids in college!
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