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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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"Do you fundamentalists remember the reason for and responsibilities of free will?"
Yes, You can chose to except God's Son Jesus saving grace, or not?
God makes it very clear that He accepts Jesus in are place when you put your trust in Him and to Him every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that He is Lord!
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Gobee
Trad climber
Los Angeles
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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I hope everyone understands there is a wide spectrum in between from No God and Evolution, to God and only literally 6 days of Creation.
There is Theistic Evolution. God created and he did so through Evolution and 15 Billion years since the Big Bang of Creation. God, the good book, and Science agree.
I would really like to get into this but it is complex and takes a great deal of time to explain. I will let PhD Gerald L. Schroeder explain:
2 Important books:
Genesis and the Big Bang: The Discovery Of Harmony Between Modern Science And The Bible (Paperback)
http://www.amazon.com/reader/0553354132?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=sib%5Fdp%5Fpt#reader
The Science of God: The Convergence of Scientific and Biblical Wisdom (Paperback)
http://www.amazon.com/Science-God-Convergence-Scientific-Biblical/dp/1439129584/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254833026&sr=8-1#noop
Here is a audio lecture/discussion you can listen to for free by Gerald Schroeder:
Genesis & The Big Bang Theory
http://www.simpletoremember.com/media/a/dr-gerald-schroeder-genesis-and-the-big-bang/#
Notes on this lecture:
http://www.torahfusion.com/schroeder-thebigbang
"Evening and morning - Day 1
Doesn't mean sunset and sunrise since the sun was created on Day 4
Ereb is Hebrew word for evening
Real meaning is that there is disorder - blurry (evening to morning - chaos to order)
Reminds me of prophecy (seeing through a glass dimly)
Tells us that Time is created"
In Genesis, "evening and morning were the first day," refers to from chaos to order were the first day (period of time), and so it goes through all the "days" of creation. So it refers to a very long period of time not a day on Earth. It is indicating a long period of time from chaos/disorder to order, which by the way is the opposite of entropy. So this requires energy input and work. Who did this? God.
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tdk
climber
puhoynix
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Of course God could have used 15 billion years of evolution to get us where we are - he's God, he can do whatever he wants.
But 15 billion years of random mutation and natural selection means DEATH for untold numbers of organisms, plants and animals that weren't fit enough to survive the long climb up from the mud. This doesn't quite fit with the character of a God who describes himself as a God of LIFE and who looked on his creation and proclaimed it "very good".
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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There is Theistic Evolution. God created and he did so through Evolution and 15 Billion years since the Big Bang of Creation. God, the good book, and Science agree.
Perhaps agreement in a figurative sense. I understand the current popular approximation for the age of the universe is 13.7 billion years. A few years ago astronomers were claiming the oldest stars were 20 billion years old and the cosmic background radiation suggested the universe was about 16 billion years old.
The argument about the earth being created in six days really didn't start until the word yom in the Hebrew Genesis creation account was translated into "day" in the english translations. Yom
(in the original Hebrew) can mean a long indeterminate epoch of time, sunrise to sunset OR a 24 hour day. Early Catholic fathers believed the yom in the Genesis creation represented long periods of time. But the later translation, of yom into "day" in english (and some other languages) gave biblical literalists justification for the six day creation myth.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Radical said: But it is a fallacy to think we ever lost anything. We were probably never the climbers that orangutans, spider monkeys, etc are now.
Saying we never lost anything as climbers is clearly ridiculous. Ardi (remember the subject of this thread?) would have outclimbed any one of us with one hand tied behind her back.
At least as far as free climbing goes. I think humans are the best aid climbers ever, if that's any consolation.
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Ed - I agree entirely with your concept of mind, and always appreciate how lucid yours is in explaining the matter!
Here's the thing that has always struck me...
As humans, we have inherited a very complex pattern recognition software developed over literally billions of years of evolution. It allows creatures to sort through huge amounts of information, come to conclusions about their environment, and make good predictions about how to interact with that environment. It works unbelievably well (better than anything we've been able to design for robots). Then, on top of that, humans added something new: they developed the ability see those patterns where they are not actually there.
On the face of it, this sounds ludicrous, as if I'm saying that humans developed *insanity*. But that's not it at all. What humans developed is *creativity*. An ability to take what they "know" and project it in other directions. Things like imagining the future, or reminiscing about the past, or creating art - these are all ways of visualizing things that do not temporally exist. And while it is at the root of intelligence, it is a skill that comes with a heavy cost.
Pining for what could have been or imagining a future that will never be - these serve no actual benefit for the organism. Then there are any number of delusions, many of which afflict the perfectly healthy mind. And many more serious conditions of the mind probably stem from minor bugs in the software.
And then there are those things which can be imagined, but cannot be disproven. As we know, these can have an amazingly large affect on humanity.
All this is an inevitable result of the software that was handed down to us, with some minor tweaks we added on.
GO
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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GoClimb:
When I read the article I came away with the impression, subjective though it may be, that Ardi was more human than ape. Jan has not finished researching the publications but when I read her post on the matter, correct or not, it at least seems she comes down on the same side.
Hmm... I'm not sure exactly what you mean. My understanding is that the great apes include humans, gorillas, chimps, and orangutans. In this graphic, they (we) are everything in the family (hilighted in yellow) hominidae.
What is referred to as the most recent common ancestor (sometimes also called the "missing link") is the ancestor between humans and our closest living relative, the chimpanzee. Where Ardi fits is on the human side, but a million years closer to that MRCA than Lucy.
Actually on second thought, I need to be more realistic. It is an error to think that "Progress" proceeds monatonically. In fact what probably happens is one kind of creature steps into a black box, there is a long period of two mixed populations including what can be seen as both improvement and degradation, until two different creatures step out of the black box. Finding a fossil is an discrete event. Evolution is not nearly so pretty.
Indeed! In fact, at any given time, there are probably lots of variations in a population. As it thrives, the number of variations almost certainly grows. Then some external "forcing" comes along which favors one or two of those variations, and kills off many of the others. Unfortunately, fossils are relatively rare, so you just wind up with little snapshots in time.
GO
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jstan
climber
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"The argument about the earth being created in six days really didn't start until the word
yom in the Hebrew Genesis creation account was translated into "day" in the english
translations. Yom (in the original Hebrew) can mean a long indeterminate epoch of time,
sunrise to sunset OR a 24 hour day."
Jennie
I think Jennie has hit on the nub of it. We are working with words here, some of them
translated and "interpretted" many times over thousands of years. The only thing we should
take literally in such a document should be the "intent." The intent that comes through is
that we are well served by treating each other well and by supporting each other.
The very saddest part of this is that taking the document literally has worked mightily to
obscure in people's minds what the intent was. If we could, for a moment, put that
document aside and each person decide for themselves how they held themselves relative to
the intent and what they would do about it
we would all benefit.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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TDK,
(You probably don't have any faith in any of what I'm about to say, and you're going to think "Man you are nuts," but I've been called worse. So read it as a "myth" if you will. So here goes . . .)
Yes, but then we haven't talked here about the creation of the heavenly hosts, Angels and other Godly creatures (and there are many different heavenly creatures). The Genesis account doesn't specificlly call them out and say when they were created. Other parts of the Bible do. And it obviously happened way before Adam ever showed up on the scene since Lucifer, the father of all Fallen Angels was on the scene to fool Eve 1st, and then Adam into rebellion against God.
The heavenly hosts could have been created from near the beginning (billions of years ago) or perhaps just a few million years prior to Adam and Eve's arrival, we do not know. But we do know that Lucifer who was one of the most beloved Angels of God, took a wrong turn and rebelled against God, and at that very moment (and took at least a third of the Angels with him), God's creation which he formed "Good" and he was very pleased with, in turn went south real quick for the worst and, decay, death, destruction, and rebellion throughout creation began.
You have to read the book of Enoch to really know the seriously wrong influence that Fallen Angels have had on modern man from the time of Adam and Eve on-ward. We were taught War, Astrology, the Occult and many other secret things that God did not want us to know and knew we couldn't handle. It would be our ruin, and sure enough here we are Mankind, in literal ruins.
Jesus said as in the days of Noah, so shall be the last days. In the days of Noah, prior to the mass destruction, flooding, and judgement from God, Sons of God (Fallen Angels) were marrying and having children with Daughters of Man. Their off-spring were Nephalim, part Fallen Angel and part Man (the worst of both). They devistated the world and were very intelligent, powerful, evil, and even acquired a taste for the flesh of man. That is why God had to bring an end to it all except those who had a pure human mankind only blood-line seperate from the Fallen Angels. He had to wipe them out and he did. Yet it says some remained. He didn't get them all. Perhaps some escaped off world? We don't know.
In the last days we are seeing something similiar. The Fallen Angels, who lie and deceive, and can appear to be Angels of Light (to deceive is in their very nature) are masquerading as friendly Space Aliens. Abductions do occur. Many governments around the world, with the exception of the USA, are releasing there files on the UFO phenomenon on official websites and now making public statements openly: France, Canada, UK, Japan, Russia, Mexico, Brazil, etc. (When I get home I can link these resouces here later.)
One of the end games is for these Alien entities to convince mankind that they are indeed Man's creator and have been involved in Man's developement throughout his evolutionary history. They will attempt to take full credit for creating man and thereby taking the place of God. It is a lie to the highest and darkest order. Yes, these "Aliens" they have influenced us throughout our history, even taught us, and have been a part of our developement, they are indeed a part of our history, but not for the good. They have taught us to rebel against God and worship other Gods, and/or to reject God all together.
Nothing is new under the Sun.
As time goes on more and more people will wake up to what is really happening. That is why God told us before it does happen so we will know he is telling us the truth and that he loves and cares for us. He gave us a redemption plan --- his beloved Son and our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ. He does not want us to be fooled and lost. We have been caught in the middle of a spiritual battle for a long, long time, and things are coming to a climax rapidly.
Here are some of the links:
Frances CNES - GEIPAN:
http://www.cnes-geipan.fr/accueil.html
UFO disclosure: What went wrong in France?
http://www.allnewsweb.com/page6936937.php
Newly released UFO files from the UK government:
http://ufos.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
Canada's UFOs: The Search for the Unknown
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/ufo/index-e.html
Japanese Government Spokesman: UFOs Definitely Real
http://www.japanprobe.com/?p=3436
Vatican Official Declares Extraterrestrial Contact Is Real
http://www.ufodigest.com/balducci.html
'Balducci provided an analysis of extraterrestrials that he feels is consistent with the Catholic Church's understanding of theology. Monsignor Balducci emphasizes that extraterrestrial encounters "are NOT demonic, they are NOT due to psychological impairment, they are NOT a case of entity attachment, but these encounters deserve to be studied carefully." Since Monsignor Balducci is a demonology expert and consultant to the Vatican , and since the Catholic Church has historically demonized many new phenomena that were poorly understood, his stating that the Church does not censure these encounters is all the more remarkable.'
I beg to differ. All the evidence points to ETs/Aliens being Fallen Angels, Nephalim, and/or demonic. We have to test the spirits.
How to Test the Spirits
http://www.creationists.org/how-to-test-the-spirits.html
Clinton White House Chief John Podesta on UFO disclosure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Sz-MgoFos
Barack Obama UFO Disclosure Video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gO4aYKVkB8
Ufo Disclosure Edgar Mitchell CNN Obama Administration April 21 2009.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4x-EGrMW_I&NR=1
Perhaps disclosure is really happening right now, but not so much in the MSM in your face, loud, sort of way. Perhaps a more quiet subtle way in the hopes of avoiding a "War of the Worlds" panic. People need to wake up, seek God, and ask Jesus to come into their hearts and receive salvation under the blood and grace of our Lord and Saviour. It is gonna be a very bumpy, scary ride eventually. You have to be ready.
Considering the allegiance and the father of Fallen Angels, Nephalim, Demons, and Aliens is Lucifer himself . . .
Just say "No" to Aliens. (Although I will say "yes" to their clean alternative energy resources -- they are indeed very intelligent but evil)
Alien Resistance:
http://www.alienresistance.net/stw.html
http://www.freestickers.net/
http://www.alienresistance.org/
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cintune
climber
the Moon and Antarctica
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Pining for what could have been or imagining a future that will never be - these serve no actual benefit for the organism.
Some of the research cited above challenges this assumption. By pining together as a group for a wholly imaginary, insane future, we banded together on a level way beyond natural selection, making greater the chances for individual survival. Religion was important for social cohesion when the world was a much bigger and more diverse place. The frightening thing is that Fundamentalist Christianity's best hope is the apocalypse it dreams of, because then we as individuals will need that kind of small-group cohesion again. Just like the bad old days.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Navblk4 wrote: Hominids linked to humans was not proven as of 1999, and the latest news is also probably theory.
I'm afraid I have no idea what you mean by this. Humans are hominids. Hominid is pretty much defined as the group to which humans belong. And what do you mean that "the latest news is ... theory"? By "theory" do you mean that maybe the news about Ardi was made up?
Sorry if I'm being dense.
GO
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MH2
climber
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Very nice to see such a variety of comment.
There was a researcher at U. of Washington in Seattle. Eric Luschei? He studied the vestibular system in chimps. In publications when he diagrammed his experimental apparatus the face of the monkey showed a distinct resemblance to the author.
He said he thought that scientists as individuals tended to be on a journey, either downward toward the molecule or upward toward the soul.
As an aspiration I would favor WBraun's view.
However, the real metaphor here is the blind men and the elephant.
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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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From memory within this book
hominids I remember being as the earliest alleged species attempting to be
linked to homo sapiens. Admittedly by over 1 dozen doctors in various
sciences whom wrote this book the alleged earliest link to homo sapiens
has not been proven without doubt.
??? Hominid is not a species. Here ya go dude: http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hominid
GO
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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For Klimmer and other Christian apologists (if you don't mind me using that term) - why even bother with the Bible? Although I am an atheist, I can certainly understand someone believing in God, but I can't understand people giving so much credence to these old texts. The Bible is known to be written and edited by various men at various times. Most of it was written in the Bronze Age - when about 1 percent of the population could read and write, but at the same time, after homo sapiens had already been around for around 200,000 years or so. There is not a shred of evidence that a supernatural being had anything to do with the content. Most Christians have learned to cherry pick the good parts and interpret the bad parts as metaphor (like stoning adulterers and non-believers, etc.). Why even bother with trying to reconcile Genesis with science. It's absurd. It's even worse for Muslims and the Koran. If you want to reconcile belief in God with science, you would be doing yourself a favor to leave out any reference to the Bible or other sacred texts. There are certainly some philosophical stances that at least have some credibility in arguing for a creator God. Trying to reconcile science with the Bible is not one of them.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
San Diego
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Bump. Added links to my last thread waaaaaaay up stream.
Hey, I'm used to critism. I hear it all the time. I also know God's ways are not our ways. The good book says . . .
1Cor.1:27 KJV
[27] But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
Now, I could go on, and on, and show more incredible Bible Code to prove the point (to all the doubting Thomases on board here who think it is all fake or made-up). The thing is it is the way God decided to communicate with us. His choice. He can do it. It pleased him to work through man this way. Lucifer tried to stop it from happening at every turn, and still tries, but God's word still got through, still gets through. What is the World's all time best selling book ever, even now? The Holy Bible. It pierces the hearts of man. His word is life to our souls. Just about anyone in the World (not everywhere mind you is this true) who wants a Bible can get one and often for free. Personally, I think it is brilliant the way he did it. I don't understand it all or all his ways, but I'm sticking with the Big Guy Upstairs. I think he knows what he is doing, and he knows what he is talking about.
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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World's all time best selling book ever, even now? The Holy Bible.
Might makes right again! What happens if the Koran or the next Harry Potter tops it?
Pretty lame arguement.
Bible Code? Riiiiight.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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Klimmer and other fundamentalists-
I think you all need a good course in comparative religion. The Bible is not the only great piece of scripture on this planet, nor does the Judeo Christian tradition have all the best answers in the field of religion - far from it.
As an anthropologist, my own rule of thumb is that an idea which appears in only one holy book or one religion is just a cultural anomaly. If similar ideas appear in multiple traditions from vastly different parts of the world, then probably they represent some universal wisdom. At the least they represent universal human yearnings.
Clearly the passages you are quoting do not inspire universal interest on this forum and therefore do not represent universal human yearnings, though the participation on this thread indicates that many people do have an interest in the interface of science and religion and in religious/spiritual/philosophical ideals. Therefore, if you want to make any headway with this audience, you're going to have to become more universal too. Otherwise, you are only making yourself feel righteous about quoting material for the record to gain points in some game that the rest of us are not playing.
Some of us are interested perhaps in why you feel compelled to base your life on literal interpretations of only one book, but we ourselves are not interested in those literal interpretations. The Buddhists talk about skillful means and the Apostle Paul noted that he altered his message depending on his audience - he did not speak the same way in Athens to the philosophers as he did in Antioch to the believers. I think you would get your point across much better if you did the same.
Just saying........
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bc
climber
Prescott, AZ
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Nothing comes close to the Bible.
Your point is what exactly? Just curious why the number of copies sold would make any difference.
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