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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:45am PT
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^^^^^^
Ah Ha!! You admit there was an "outside" and thus also an "inside"!! This proves the conspiracy that has been formerly denied!!
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:48am PT
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Ray was out long before we got there Deuce.... His name was tarnished to fuk the first time I'd ever heard of him.
When we were there (me, Deuce, the shitters etc) the first thing we did was abolish the inside and outside stuff. Group hug.....
The Valley_Illuminati™™™ are still very much running the show though.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:51am PT
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shucks. I feel like we're having a virtual group hug right now!
Edit: 'stooth, I still meet folks, "outsiders" as it were, who remind me of some act of sharing of information or gear I did back in the mid-80's that made their day. Come to think of it, in '82 I arrived in the Valley with nothing but a chalk bag and shoes and only a week to climb, and it was you, Russ, who loaned me and a buddy a haulbag and some duct-taped Clorox bottles so we could climb the Salathe.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:52am PT
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That's right
The Valley_Illuminati, ... secret, so secret you only few are allowed in.
No rimmers .... ?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:54am PT
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So, we're up to several cases of beer and $1500...
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dogtown
Gym climber
JackAssVille, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 12:54am PT
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Let them have the route? What? It was Thiers in the first place. The beating that these two have taken is unheard of in the history of climbing in the Valley. Oh, Maybe the Wall of the Early Morning Light. Or maybe Growing up. I always thought Harding had a line. But for years it never was in a guide. It was looked at as climbing by hammer and drill. And it was! Please be fare. Give the dudes that. They did not send the route by hammer and drill. I was there as some of you . It was said at first, They are drilling and bat hooking up the slab. ( not) OK, and then later they are chipping and hooking the way up the slab. Other than them, no one knows what they did, But Pete. For the route awaits us all. For me I say. The route is nuts! The work. The training. The time. The falls. The falls. Over and over. You must be joking! One has to want it bad to put up with that kind of shitzz. that’s it from me. You two f*#ks are on your own!
1000 bucks still stands.
Dogtown.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:02am PT
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Okay this whole "surfer attitude" "not-in-with-the-in-crowd" reduction needs a little more perspective. I don't know who was the actual ringleader of the rope pulling and defecation, but the small group of dudes who did the disrespectful act were like the "Spicozi's" of the Camp 4 scene of that time. They were not representative of everyone, or even any kind of major players on El Cap. Sure, I probably laughed over deli beers when I heard of it, like others, and I think some thousands of posts ago, I told Mark and Richard that I now regretted that and considered the act most unfortunate.
Now to say there was a "double standard" because Bridwell did some modification on El Cap and got nothing but respect is also really simplistic. Bridwell earned respect all over the world not just because of how rad he climbed but because of how he conducted himself in relation to the climbing community wherever he visited. He made the effort to meet the locals, show them respect, learn their history, celebrate their achievements, then he went up and sent the big ones, Cerro Torre, Mooses Tooth, etc. Indeed most of the climbers we put on the world class pedestal seem to conduct themselves in that manner, putting up the visionary lines in knowledge, relation and respect of what has come before.
New territory on El Cap in 1982 was still considered world class hallowed ground, not yet the filled-in routine experience of today.
So, had Mark and Richard come to the Valley, climbed some routes, hung with some regulars, then said they were trying out some rad new hooking techniques and were going for a crazy line up the big blank slab they most likely would have had a completely different experience with the locals. But they didn't feel any need to or did not want to relate to the locals and some immature jerks within our community (yes, our friends) reacted with incredible disrespect.
As a valley local of 1982 I am truly sorry they had such a bad time. Sounds like the route was/is hard, and they can enjoy some kind of pride that no one has repeated it.
Rim On Out
Peter
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:17am PT
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Only known image of a Valley Illuminati meeting:
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
Nowhere
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:19am PT
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"Now to say there was a "double standard" because Bridwell did some modification on El Cap and got nothing but respect is also really simplistic. Bridwell earned respect all over the world not just because of how rad he climbed but because of how he conducted himself in relation to the climbing community wherever he visited. He made the effort to meet the locals, show them respect, learn their history, celebrate their achievements, then he went up and sent the big ones, Cerro Torre, Mooses Tooth, etc. Indeed most of the climbers we put on the world class pedestal seem to conduct themselves in that manner, putting up the visionary lines in knowledge, relation and respect of what has come before.
New territory on El Cap in 1982 was still considered world class hallowed ground, not yet the filled-in routine experience of today.
So, had Mark and Richard come to the Valley, climbed some routes, hung with some regulars, then said they were trying out some rad new hooking techniques and were going for a crazy line up the big blank slab they most likely would have had a completely different experience with the locals. But they didn't feel any need to or did not want to relate to the locals and some immature jerks within our community (yes, our friends) reacted with incredible disrespect. "
Maysho, good post. You're just confirming what others have believed all along. The "controversy" over this route has nothing to do with "ethics" or "purity" or "truth" even and everything to do with their not kissing up to the locals.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:25am PT
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A little background from the last turn of the screw...or was it the turn before that?
MS 10/26/05 To reaffirm, we climbed the entire Great Slab without a single bat hook. If you can look at a Wings placement and say “that was done with a drill or chisel,” then you are looking at a rivet or a bolt.
Your confusion probably stems from the fact that what I meant by “enhanced” is not what “enhanced” is generally taken to mean. On the Sea, for instance, enhanced meant some kind of hole drilled diagonally behind a flake or into a sloping ledge (at a critical point on Hook or Book, on a 45 degree slope!). Such holes were designed to take the point of a taper-ground Chouinard/Black Diamond Cliffhanger. On Wings of Steel “enhanced” means that we chipped out a crystal at the back of a ledge so the point of a Leeper Narrow could rest at the back the ledge. Typically only a single crystal was chipped out, although on some larger ledges where there was a crust of decomposing rock we chipped out several crystals in order to find solid rock. Our "enhancements" didn't create a hole or go diagonally into the cliff. There are many enhanced hook placements on Wings of Steel, but, unlike the Sea, when you do the climb you won’t be able to tell which flakes were enhanced and which ones weren’t.
JeffBenowitz 10/28/05 Whoa M smith. In a lot of people's book every time the drill touches the rock it should be in the hole count. Now I'm starting to understand the "situation." I know it might be semantics, but if the placement wasn't good enough to use without using a drill, than by definition it should be in the hole count. Just cause you made a body weight hole, instead of a ½ inch bolt doesn’t change the count. Sure it makes it “harder” and scarier to chip a hook instead of drill a bolt, but either way you are bringing the rock down to your level. How many times did the drill come out? Be honest, or is the number to high to remember? Sorry for lambasting ya John, tar and feather the blokes for all I care.
Russ 10/28/05 I really hate to do it.... this thread is already taking half a day to load, but:
WosS FAist writes: Our "enhancements" didn't create a hole or go diagonally into the cliff. There are many enhanced hook placements on Wings of Steel, but, unlike the Sea, when you do the climb you won’t be able to tell which flakes were enhanced and which ones weren’t.
This is the fatal flaw with the "method". If I can't tell which flakes have been ENHANCED, then am I allowed to ENHANCE my hook placements in order to do the route? How do I know I am even doing the correct route? Do I need to spend full days out on lead with a lupe just to get a legitimate ascent? Here is where it is total bullsh#t. I have been hosed by missing bat hook holes on a route and ended up bailing, only to come back to finish the route with a new topo showing the holes. It appears the same will happen to any fool who tries to do a second of WofS, and a good style ascent just may be impossible. Definining the degree of ENHANCEMENT is a silly game. The difference between we only cleaned a little with the drill, and drilling a hole is minimal in my book. I think I actually would prefer a hole with something in it.
Side note: Even though I dig Slater and knew him pretty well, his failures on your route are not giving me a lot of insight into the difficulty. Rob was a very good wall climber, but not the best around. He had problems with other routes and multiple tries to ascend, but, and after this new info, maybe it was not a Slater problem at all on this particular route. It just might have been the route itself.
Double side note™™™:
Really glad you guys are around for this dialog. Much appreciated!
Deuce 10/29/05 Let's summarize:
We're talking about a route put up in an era long ago, which was controversial at the time, but since then had faded into obscurity along with its original controversy, until recently.
We have two of the original ascentionists in the conversation.
One of them, MSmith seems quite honest and sincere, but also completely oblivious to the fact that the repeated use of chiseled hooks and the extensive use of bolts on a El Cap first ascent may have caused some consternation among the experienced practicioners of the sport at the time.
The other, madbolter1, seems indignant that the world hasn't been astonished as his prowess of his ascent of El Cap, and considers any critique on his route as "ridiculous and uncharitable," and has dissed in so many words some of the top aid climbers in history, namely Jim Bridwell and Jim Beyer, presumably to enhance his own reputation of being more skilled than them. By repeatedly bringing in his religious beliefs (which in reality has nothing to do with this conversation except that it may have added a week to their time on the route), he seems to make some connection of his religion with the public perception of his route, feeling persecuted on both counts (perhaps showing a hint of a Jesus complex?).
Because it seems apparent that the ascentionists haven't climbed too many routes other than those that have a significant "reputation" of top difficulty, which they repeated with what seems like the sole purpose to gain credibility for themselves and for their ability to publicly announce to the world that their route was harder, it seems difficult to ascertain that these climbers are climbing purely for their own "personal experience" as claimed. In fact, it seems like the sole motive is to convince the world that Wings of Steel was somehow ahead of its time, despite the fact that they admit enhancing the natural features considerably.
Finally, at the time and perhaps even more so now, the standards of aid climbing has been to climb massive walls in as pure style as possible, meaning using natural features; if no natural features are available, to use a rivet rather than chipping, bathooking, chisseling, or otherwise altering the stone in a short-term manner of thinking, a fact these ascentionists seem completely unwilling to accept, even 20 years after the event.
The first ascentionist's lifelong insistence on promoting their actions as a high standard simply because of the resulting difficulty of their manufactured route seems to suggest that they therefore feel deserving of accolades as pioneers, instead of what it finally really appears to be, a trio of inexperienced climbers trying to make a name for themselves.
RJ 4/27/06 The answer is simple. I quote the book: "We used 151 hooks to ascend the route. All but five were Leeper narrows. We placed 205 copperheads, most of which were #0, #1, and #2."
MS 11/21/05 Ammon wrote "Exactly, what do you consider a bat-hook hole? They are there. Who put them in?"
A bat hook hole is a hole you drill in blank rock to place a hook. Pretty straightforward. Perhaps the definition gets tricky if the hole is at the top of narrow ledge or on a sloping shelf, but there are no such holes on WoS.
Bringmedeath 4/27/06 Here is what I see...
-13 pitches... topo shows most rivets/bolts on first 9 pitches except the 13th traverse.
-First 9 look to be like 1000 feet or under???
-Probably at least 120 holes in first 9???
-1000 divided by 120=8.3 feet per hole
Now I can drill a hole on a slab pretty far apart... at least 6 feet. So... umm... how many natural placements in first 9 would you say?
Gotta be careful with those averages. Every time we placed two rivets in a row, that adds another natural placement between rivets somewhere else. Yup, there are some rivet ladders. That means there are some long sections of hooking.
Keep in mind also that the hole count includes anchor bolts, the count of which is.... 27 or 28. Also, our pitches were long. We figured right at 1,200 feet of climbing up the slab.
Anyway, if the hole count is being used to suggest a rivet ladder yet again, welll... see the last several hundred posts on these three threads.
RJ 4/30/06 At this point, I believe that anybody who can call the route a "botch" in the face of the bathead issue cannot be convinced of anything positive about the route no matter what. A reasonable person is going to say, "Crap, so they used ten or so batheads in a 1200 foot slab. Is that make or break?" It's just very hard for me to see how anybody can honestly make a big deal about this "revelation" about one of the many "imperfections" of the route. Surprise, guys, but PROBABLY your parents had sex after your were born too (along with their actual, genuine indiscretions). They were probably still reasonably good parents, which is all any parent can hope to be. "Imperfection" doesn't mean "botch," and it certainly doesn't mean or imply "rivet ladder" or "POS".
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:35am PT
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Whoa, heavy.
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:48am PT
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Oh No! Steve's busting up our group hug!
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 01:56am PT
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Steve has SA written all over him!
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 23, 2009 - 02:26am PT
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GC wrote: "Maysho, good post. You're just confirming what others have believed all along. The "controversy" over this route has nothing to do with "ethics" or "purity" or "truth" even and everything to do with their not kissing up to the locals."
hmmmm...
anyone care to guess why the valley is not the home of bolted cracks, sport chimneys, and manufactured routes? it's cause of the traditions of these same locals, those you'd now so easily diss, those who took their responsibility as stewards seriously.
just what do you all think "self regulated" means?
just as peter said, coulda been handled better by some, but also coulda been handled better by them as well.
either way, can't be undone, hasn't been redone, everyone chiming in disagrees w/ someone, may just as well go have a cold one,
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2009 - 02:29am PT
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Bottom line, if Ammon spent 25 minutes in the saddle trying to figure out where to place the next hook then that means all the claims of 'enhancements' and 'enhancements as part of the hole count' are complete bullsh#t. Other than the holes they filled with fixed pro, there's clearly no discernable sign of their passage over the stone. You can dicker over what they left behind in the way of fixed pro, the rest is less than irrelavant and after 25 years the state of all the micro edges is likely about the same as when they did the FA.
Beer and 1500 bucks on the table, but now that the SA has been blown into a much harder effort than the FA it's hard to see how any of you mutherf*#kers could ever succeed. Or is setting the stage for why an SA team might fail the idea - that it's so much harder now? I've heard some good ones about SAs in the past, but this 'harder' ploy is a new twist even for me.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 23, 2009 - 02:32am PT
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^^^
wha,,,?
that's horse sh#t right there, that's what that is!
forget WoS for a sec here- so you say that if i can sculpt a route somewhere in some way that you cannot tell i did it, it's ok?
i take it back, i am being offensive to horse sh#t...
(edit- and from a logical perspective, all it could mean would be something about that particular spot, and nothing about any other spot, so your point is without merit)
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2009 - 02:38am PT
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If a pea gravel stone of crystals over nine pitches is 'sculpting' then every route on El Cap is sculpted. Talk about group denial. What a frigging joke - you keep hanging on to that story as the odds are good you wouldn't be able to hold onto the hook pictured above.
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Russ Walling
Gym climber
Poofter's Froth, Wyoming
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Sep 23, 2009 - 02:42am PT
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Joseph..... 25 minutes ain't that long. I've spent up to a couple of HOURS trying to get a placement to stick before. And I'm sticking by my SA is harder claim, and backing it up with real experiences. What are you basing your statements on?
Ammon just might have been off route.... it is possible you know, especially in the microscopic realm of extreeeeeme slab hooking.
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Matt
Trad climber
primordial soup
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Sep 23, 2009 - 02:42am PT
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not to drag him into it, but maybe the real question ought to be how long it'd have taken ammon if he'd been willing to "micro-enhance" (wtf is that anyway?) his placements w/ a flat drill bit
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Sep 23, 2009 - 03:07am PT
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Russ, and I'm sticking with that after 25 years of weathering the 'route' in all likelyhood displays essentially the exact same hooking opportunities as the FA party were presented with. That and P1 & 2 have been retrofitted with new fixed pro and the pro that was pulled to do that was still in basically good shape, doubly so if you used screamers which Mark and Richard didn't. The fact that the fixed pro exists on the route simply means you'd only have to do the comparable number of hook moves between clips that they did minus the drilling off tenuous hooks. Not buying it.
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