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perswig
climber
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Nov 30, 2014 - 04:21am PT
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Haha!
Buried in the morass was this gem from Rgold. Worth reading the whole thread just to see the context.
The UIAA rating for half-rope logging is only for non-snagging applications.
Dale
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Nov 30, 2014 - 11:56am PT
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RG: I've been climbing for more than fifty years and I think I need rope stacking lessons. When I flip one of those piles, I get the mother of all Gordian knots half the time.
BM: I got a little rope trick for anyone who has ever had this issue. I simply stack both ropes over my personal anchor,starting with really long loops, which each loop progressively shorter than the next. This way, the next loop you stack won't cross under the previous loop which is what causes snags.
So start with six or seven foot loops (or longer if you can) and work your way down to six inch loops by the time your partner reaches the belay. If you do this correctly the rope will flip perfect every single time. The most important part is paying attention to the length of the loops as you belay.
Thanks Big Mike. I've known about this stacking trick for many years. By the way, if you are going to be flipping the stacks, which is what the comment referred to (and because the same person is leading consecutive pitches), then you have to do the opposite of what you posted, which is to say start small and make bigger and bigger loops.
My problem is I can't seem to manage to make the graduated loop system work all of the time, and one bad tangle wastes more time than restacking every pitch. The only time I can consistently get it right is when I belay with a guide plate off the anchor, which I'm not a fan of in general but which does free you up (at the expense of an ideal belay for the second, no matter what anyone says) to fuss with the loop lengths.
Even when you get the loop lengths right, flipping the pile can change things enough to create tangles. Yes, I know about getting the new belayer tie-in right next to and parallel to the current belayer's tie in to that the pile can be flipped without having to be carried. I've still had bad tangles.
I've started to wonder whether it might be better to stack with short loops all of the same length. One of the problems with the graduated loop method is if something goes wrong with a loop six feet below you, there isn't much you can do about it.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Nov 30, 2014 - 12:32pm PT
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Hey Brian! I'm doing real good these days, thanks for asking. Snow is coming! But sun and cold are dominating again for the next couple days, so climbing is on my mind..
By the way, if you are going to be flipping the stacks, which is what the comment referredl to (and because the same person is leading consecutive pitches), then you have to do the opposite of what you posted, which is to say start small and make bigger and bigger loops.
No sir! This is probably where your tangles happen. It's way easier to start long because the loops will stay on your tether while you're looking down at your second. If you start short, they can slip off without you even noticing, or if you do, then you have to fix it which takes longer!
You can still get a few tangles when you flip if you drop a couple of the short loops in the transfer, but at least they will be towards the end of the pitch when the belayer has less rope to deal with and will easily be able to sort it out.
I also typically belay halfs with my atc guide in autoblock mode which like your plates makes handling the ropes easier.
I used to have seconds complain about rope snarls all the time, but now i never hear a peep after I flip the rope, and all my leads are clean sans rope snarls.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Nov 30, 2014 - 12:51pm PT
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Hmmm. There is some kind of communication error here. You don't flip a stack at all when alternating leads, the short loops are on top for the person who will become the leader. The only time to flip stacks is when the same person is going to lead consecutive pitches. If you don't flip the stack in that case, the leader's rope will be feeding off the bottom. If you stack loops small to big and then flip the stack, the new leader will be pulling out the big loops before the small loops, a recipe for a guaranteed tangle.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Nov 30, 2014 - 02:45pm PT
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Right. I don't know where you got alternating leads from? I am talking specifically about the situation you mentioned, when one person is leading all the pitches and one person follows them all.
Start long, work progressively shorter. Just try it out.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Nov 30, 2014 - 03:44pm PT
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Anyone else want to weigh in on this?
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Nov 30, 2014 - 03:59pm PT
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If your partner is leading the next pitch…
Make the first loops the longest, so the shorter coils will be on top. Make the longer coils as long as you’d like, but not so lengthy that they’re getting caught on rocks or features below. Each subsequent coil should be shorter by a few inches, so the long coils on the bottom won’t get twisted up with the shorter strands. With the short coils on top, the rope will feed smoothly when you switch from pulling in slack to paying out rope as your partner goes on lead.
If you’re leading the next pitch…
You’ll want the belayer to have the same setup listed above: long coils on bottom, short coils on top. That means you’ll coil the rope properly for your partner as you belay him, and you’ll need to do it in reverse, so start with short coils that hang at least a foot down on each side. Each coil after that should be several inches longer. Once he reaches the belay and clips into the anchor, work together to flip the coils onto his tether. Have him pick up the bundle of rope straight off your tie-in point, and, keeping them in order, he should move the bundle so it’s touching his tether. At this point, you should take the other side of the coils and flip them over onto his tether, so longer strands are on bottom.
http://www.climbing.com/skill/learn-this-alpine-rope-management/[
Here's an ariticle that supports your theory, but i've always had success doing it the opposite way.
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yosemite 5.9
climber
santa cruz
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Nov 30, 2014 - 05:10pm PT
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My primary concern whether or not my rope will save me is when I am following and starting a long pitch that uses almost all of the rope.
For the first ten feet at least it seems that there is too much stretch available in the almost full length of even a single rope to keep me from landing hard on a ledge or from swinging into the wall from a start that leans out over a ledge.
This is disconcerting if the initial moves above the ledge are tricky like a hard lie back. West Crack on Daff Dome has an upper pitch that starts like this. Asking for tension helps, but it only goes so far to reduce the potential stretch.
I would not be inclined to rely on a half rope in this situation as it might have even more stretch. Perhaps if the second half rope was also on tension, the combined stretch would be minimal. But then you have two ropes to try to keep out of the crack. Two ropes on tension in a crack can eliminate some hand holds.
A second half rope that kicks in tension after the first one is stretched would seem to be too little, too late, to keep me above the ledge or from swinging into the wall.
My secondary concern about any rope is a hard fall over a sharp edge. I prefer Edelweiss ropes that are rated to take a hard fall over a sharp edge. I admit some surprise that most climbers do not seem to consider this even though cut ropes resulting in death are not rare.
Finally, the fact that the mantel did not melt is not proof that the kern fibers are not damaged by excessive heat. A skinnier rope (or two) would seem to be more susceptible to heat damage from sliding through a hot belay device or other heat situation. If your belay devise is too hot to hold, imagine what the heat is doing to the inner fibers.
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ruppell
climber
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Nov 30, 2014 - 05:30pm PT
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Anyone else want to weigh in on this?
Sure Rich. Same as you said and the link Mike posted. If your partners leading you stack long to short. If your leading the whole thing you stack short to long. I've been doing it that way for years with singles as well as doubles and rarely have any issues.
One thing you all might want to consider though is stacking through a sling. It eliminates the need to flip or transfer the rope any where. So here's how I do it. NOTE: I belay my second with an auto-block(sorry Rich there bomber)
After getting myself into the anchor I take a two foot runner off my shoulder. Then I clip it to one of my anchor pieces. Not the master point. I pull up the rope and stack it through the sling. Just like stacking over your tie in. Long to short if your trading leads. In this case once your partner anchors in all you have to do is give him the gear and he's off. No flipping.
If your leading it all you basically do the same thing with one little trick. So you start short to long. As you make another loop through the sling you tuck it UNDER the stack. Wash, rinse, repeat. If done right your partner will arrive at the belay and the short stacks that go to you will be on top. Pretty slick huh?
I've been belaying this way for a very long time. I actually have two dedicated rope slings I carry with me because I started to worry about abrasion from the rope to the slings I'd lead on. It would be a lie if I said I've never had a tangle. I can remember three. Out of thousands of pitches.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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I must have a thick scull because I still cannot figure out why they would drop a lighter weight for the half ropes. You know I am going to the source and email them and see if I can get an answer from the horses mouth.
I will let you all know if I find anything of interest.
They test 1/2 and twin ropes with the lighter weight under the assumption that both ropes will be a factor in the fall.
Recent ropes are also tested as singles. These are tested at 80 kg in the singles mode.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1394130
As a point of interest, I've climbed on 1/2 ropes since about 1980 for everything but 1/2 rope length sport stuff. I recently retired some 8.8 ropes. They were pristine but 5 years old and I frankly don't care what beer, gas, and climbing gear costs. I was heading out to do a couple long climbs in the Sierra.
The new ropes are 7.8. I decided to weigh them and see how much I was saving in weight, and to my surprise, they weigh slightly more than my 8.8 ropes do! ( nominally the same length. I haven't actually measured them.)
My partner has some 7.6 ropes. The next time I see him I will take my scale along and weigh his.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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Let's say I lead a single pitch of ice using two half ropes. I then get to the top and want to set an anchor for top roping for my partner / group of friends that want to TR the climb. Should the two ropes be run through the master point biners together and everyone ties into both ropes when they climb? I know a single half is ok for top roping but the stretch will be large which could result in a ground fall if someone blows it say 3m up. So is using two the way to go? Or drop the halves and just use a single instead for this scenario?
Let's intead say I'm a dufus and chop through the rope while I'm setting my axe.
What's your choice then?
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