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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Feb 21, 2009 - 04:02pm PT
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"While not entirely relevant to the recent tragedy on Aconcagua, it is testament to what Rokjox wrote about motivation and sincere humanity being core ingredients in sucessful rescue."
Totally irrelevant is more accurate. 21k is an entirely different subject matter.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 21, 2009 - 07:13pm PT
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When a group is knitted tightly and they have worked together every week for years their interactions become adapted for that environment. The interactions needed to make a group successful in a very large city are not necessarily the interactions that will keep that group alive in an avalanche chute. And the AMC really was very successful, doing a lot of good work no one else could even attempt.
I guess this indicates only that it is always incumbent upon us to be aware.
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philo
Trad climber
boulder, co.
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Feb 21, 2009 - 07:27pm PT
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I just had two native spanish speakers listen to the audio on head phones. According to them there was no ridicule or derogatory language. One guy does say sh#t. Who wouldn't? But he does not call the dying guide a sh#t. They said the desperation and exhaustion of the rescuers was painfully obvious. These guys deserve a heap of credit for trying, not a pile of condemnation for a situation that few understand.
This is very sad for all.
I can understand the father's grief but a law suit is unwarranted.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Idaho Falls
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Feb 21, 2009 - 07:58pm PT
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"Perhaps it would be best to make a separate thread for it. Either way, it is a worthy topic of discussion."
Crock,
Yes, the Otter Body rescue might be more appropriate on a separate thread, at another time. The story is long and takes place on lower yet more technical terrain, and the moral import goes down a different lane.
I wonder if climbers are much more cynical now than fifty years ago. I'm not suggesting the rescue group on Aconcagua are guilty of wrongdoing. But Rokjox made some valid points that were submerged in the back and forth heckling.
If the "Otter Body Events" occured NOW, without a GTNP rescue team available, would guides and experienced Teton climbers come together to execute a similarly improvised rescue or just say, "Those easterners are in a mess of their own making and we must now abandon them to their fate."
Good judgement keeps us on route and away from danger. But being strictly one dimensional about good judgement we might not climb at all. When bad things happen, "good judgement" doesn't answer the cry of the human heart. A most critical judgement we make is whether to bear each others burdens. And, yes, sometimes the risk may be too great.
Cynicism is a disease which diminishes human capacity to distinguish right from wrong and distances us from our fellow beings. I think Rox's reaction is out of personal disgust for the cynicism, more than a discrete judgement against the rescuers on Aconcagua.
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pip the dog
Mountain climber
planet dogboy
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Feb 21, 2009 - 09:31pm PT
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I agree with tom woods’ line of thought.
What we (both organized SAR groups -- and the rest of us who may someday be in such a situation) can learn from this, and hence maybe do better next time – let’s work to figure that out.
Having been a member of organized SAR groups in the past, I recognize the point of tom’s focus. It is appropriate and a good one. I myself have been on SAR rescues in which the outcome was rather grim – and not at all what we had hoped for. And as a group we spent many hours trying to learn something new from it. I am confident that this is what tom is focused on.
~~~
That said, next time I go up high I won’t likely bring a stokes (or whatever). At this point, as I rocket into my dotage, my choice of pretty peaks all but excludes running into anyone -- let alone guides, clients, and crowds. I choose, now, to solo stuff of interest to just me. Most still about as high as anconcogua. But on terrain that matches my current horsepower (ie, nothing notable).
And given my interests, solo in the middle of nowhere, I climb accordingly. If things get more than just kind of itchy, I back off. I have done just that on the last two high peaks I was on.
For I know that if I blow it, just ‘there’ -- I’m toast. So stuff I might likely choose to try to plow through with a partner, or better still a couple of partners and knowledge that there is a hot SAR team and a way skilled chopper pilot with a hot ride nearby -- I now just back off of.
And that’s fine by me. One of the upsides to being an unnamed climber on unnamed and surely no big deal peaks is that no one really gives a sh!t if I top out or not. Among them, me. Even I only care so much. Enough, I hope, to push myself when I’d rather stall, but not so much that I end up toast.
~~~
That’s what informs my read on this. So among the many armchair quarterbacks – those souls who like tom do so to ask “What can we learn from this” are more than good by me. While those who are so certain they could and would have done better -- well, me, I kinda wonder quietly about that. I suspect they haven’t ever been ‘there’.
^,,^
(my clan is just not wired for 'terse' -- my apologies on that front)
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Feb 21, 2009 - 10:28pm PT
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doug buchanan said "Unlike everyone I have encountered, the words I use hold their meanings."
only that most of us have never seen such BS come from one mouth...
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Feb 22, 2009 - 04:55pm PT
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RJ, lying about Alex's rescue doesn't help your case. Big difference between 400 feet (the actual case) and 400 yards (your exaggeration). Lying by omission is equally bad, such as the part about pre-acclimatizing, flying into position in a helicopter, and flying out. Yes, what Alex did was cool. But it is no where near to what these rescuers were faced with.
We all get that you have no clue what you're talking about and have no relevant experience but please stop lying as you make a fool of yourself.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Feb 22, 2009 - 09:05pm PT
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the only thing more funny than Rx's rantings is that DMT on sumitpost sucks the chief of for his rantings then blasts rox for similar rantings. two faced coksuker.
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TYeary
climber
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Feb 22, 2009 - 09:19pm PT
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Rokjox,
I'm just curious, do you think the "playboy climbers" should face legal charges? Just what do you think should be done? You are so adement that the rescuers were F-ups, should they , in your opinion be punished somehow? I'm not baiting you. I hear what you have been saying. What do you think should happen now?
Tony
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 22, 2009 - 11:48pm PT
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Just got back from playing in the snow.
The high cash is a great idea- we have gear stashed on Whitney to lighten the loads when we have to go up. The evil rangers, some of whom are on out team, carry the litters back up to after we carry someone down.
A light litter in the cache- these things called skeds are basically a stiff plastic tortilla, they are easy to carry and slide real well.
Altitude is a problem? How about stashing Oxygen,not for climbing but for rescue and victims?
The anchor situation looked grim up there (small scree and shallow snowpack)
I can't speak for those guys down there, they might be doing this already.
What I wonder is what would happen if this guy had a broken pelvis or other injury where he couldn't walk or crawl, but was otherwise stable. Side note our team once had a whitney rescue, where the victim had double open dislocated ankles in other words bones sticking out, but not broken, yikes!
So say you have person who is otherwise fine, but can't move and you have to go up to the summit.
The list of things that you need is long, but what I keep coming back to is you need to be prepared to hang out for a long time. Stove, food, shelter and warmth would be key.
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 22, 2009 - 11:51pm PT
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Rox- with the heat packs, we find that they tend to go bad before they get used, but that's here in CA, so who knows.
How bout a big ol' Coleman stove
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 23, 2009 - 12:45am PT
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Coleman stove- could be right, but a stove none the less. Heat packs are a good idea, especially if you can resolve the going bad thing.
I too wondered about building a little rock wall to hunker down if you had to,and had a sleeping bag.
We often just bring one bag for the victim, and then warm clothes for ourselves when we bivy. I'm starting to get over this and think that I should have bag for me too.
They'll do what they're going to do down there, I just think its important to think of these things before hand.
Fast and light is great when all goes well. I often wonder if people really know how difficult it is to rescue someone. The time and effort is huge, even for some chump on the whitney trail. A helo is relatively fast and easy, but not always available, limited by weather, alititude and usually daylight, and dangerous.
When you call for a rescue, it can be most of a day before help arrives, even here in the civilized Sierra. Getting yourself out is best, but when you can't you can't, so we don't mind helping those who need it.
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Doug Buchanan
Mountain climber
Fairbanks Alaska
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Feb 23, 2009 - 01:32am PT
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Hawkeye my friend.....
In the past I often suggested that the worlds of my opponents were BS.
Then I started asking more questions of my simple response, and discovered my common error. They were words that had not already formed comfortable neural routings in my brain, and were thus different, uncomfortable knowledge.
Since we humans are lucky to be in error only 50 percent of the time, I more carefully questioned those words, and thus learned new knowledge about 50 percent of the time, that I would have otherwise not learned from the dismissal of BS.
You are to be admired for being so perceptive as to represent most of the SuperTopo folks.
And you are seeing the words come from the screen, not a mouth.
It is that common hasty dismissal, rather than questioning, of different knowledge that keeps the humans repeating the same failures for generations, such as not optimized mountain rescue efforts.
That is most evident in government personnel whose perception of their government power with bureaucratic paper credentials, and thus perception of superiority, routinely causes them to dismiss the real-life knowledge of those mere civilian mountain climbers.
The next generation of folks who ask few questions will have this discussion, again, much to the amusement of the observers.
Doug
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whatmeworry
Mountain climber
Pasadena, CA
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Feb 23, 2009 - 01:34am PT
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In the interest of learning some lessons and not being sure if this has been said in prior posts or not I'll throw this out.
I think one of the mistakes is assuming the victim is already dead. Without some very compelling evidence to the contrary I think a rescue is initiated with the idea that the victim is alive and can be helped. I consider this a fundamental element of mountain rescue.
Consequently, at least minimal gear must be carried to support the victim(s). Even on a search you have to assume your crew might be the one that finds the subject and needs to keep them alive until help can arrive.
Assuming the role of rescuer has to force a shift in mindset and the resulting planning, regardless of how rushed, has to reflect this. The shift in approach from climb to rescue can happen quickly and result in a rescue centered game plan.
Tom - It would be very interesting to do a CA region recert that includes an overnight forced bivy with a substantial patient care component.
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Agentili
climber
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Feb 23, 2009 - 10:56am PT
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I know nada of climbing that is why I came here to read opinions from those who know.
I am from Argentina and I will tell few things:
1-Rescuers do not says “cuñado” (brother-in-law) they said “culeado”, that can actually means “dude or as#@&%e” depend of how is use; my understanding is that they used it as “dude”.
2- I know is only 3mins video but there is almost nada of intention of helping the guy to survive, even if they thot he was not going to make it , the way they acted and talked…… This is proven 100% when the guy in red says:” he is not moving”…and he was moving…..and here is the second things that kills me….when Federico hear this….he start trying to get up…so he was “conscious” that he need to show he was “alive” …..
3- I don’t think they were professional rescuers (if they were SHAME OF THEM), but if you volunteer/”forced” to do something do it right, if not just don’t do it. I don’t means this by judging equipment or technique cuz ,again, I don’t know nada about it, I say it by intentions you can see in the 3mins video….. in my understanding of “normal life” ….they are just waiting him to die so they are “free to go”.
When I say normal life is cuz, I don’t know if at that high with that cold …can affect your brain and say and act in a stupidity and immoral way.
Please forgive my newish words, I am not trying to be Rambo keyboard...
Kind Regards!
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tom woods
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
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Feb 23, 2009 - 11:25am PT
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What me worry, I agree, long term patient care is over looked.
Over night long term patient care is difficult to train (time) and not really taught anywhere. EMT's want you at the hospital in 20 minutes, First responders do teach it to some degree, but you don't train it you talk about it.
Most of the time, the victim is stable, a broken leg, altitude, dislocated shoulder or something.
We've had some major head injuries, though, that are a real problem. Carrying enough oxygen is really really hard on top of all the other gear you have.
Head injury, EMT says high flow O2. They usually fall in the afternoon to evening (fatigue and what not) By the time the report filters down to the nearest cell phone, or cell phone range, and we hike up there, often its after midnight and you have to hang out until the helo arrives roughly around 9:00.
Sometimes we push daylight with the helo, once we had some bad ass military chopper fly in on night vision,- we've gotten lucky with the choppers on the two major head injuries we've had in recent years.
Choppers get grounded for all sorts of things, around here, usually the wind. Could we care for a person for 24 hours?
What is care? helping people help themselves. You don't really keep someone alive, you help their bodies live best you can.
Oxygen, from what I've been taught, is the big biggie after you have slowed the bleeding and made sure the airway is open.
For the most part, the victim is either stable or dead by the time the rescuer gets there, but there are times when the situation is critcal and the little things might really matter.
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jstan
climber
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Feb 23, 2009 - 11:37am PT
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You like night vision. A story I have told before.
My thesis advisor's father put him and his mother on a ship escaping France in the late thirties, but then stayed behind to help other family members as he might. Henry came to the US and spent sixty years helping to build the night vision we now have.
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whatmeworry
Mountain climber
Pasadena, CA
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Feb 23, 2009 - 03:41pm PT
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Continuing the efforts to learn some lessons from this tragedy...
Providing extensive supportive care for extended periods of time is going to present a significant challenge no matter how we tackle it. Other experienced SAR or medical forum readers should weigh in, but I believe the protocol for use of O2 would be to NOT withold treatment due to limited supplies. Use what you've got as called for (prn). An improvement in condition may buy you more time and/or a more stable victim that you can get to a more tenable position.
I think you're right Tom, the ability to provide definitive care in the field is always going to be very limited and you are providing support to keep the situation as stable as possible. The std. urban approach to pre-hospital care are not going to apply to the typical backcountry rescue so we can't let ourselves get excessively hung up on them.
I challenge the notion that because training to provide extended care is difficult and time consuming that we shouldn't be doing it. At least in US the reliance on helos to scoop and go is a weakness in the SAR community. The 5% of the time that we can't fly the victim means we must be able to provide supportive care. We should be doing much more to train for this contingency and should be considering this part of a team's overall competency. To me this is part of what defines a professional SAR competency.
I suspect that the situation MIGHT have been improved on Aconcagua if the resuers could have provided some supplemental support. They might have been able to improve his viability and ability to "self rescue" with assistance from those on scene. The rescuers needed to have planned ahead to provide this supplemental suport by bringing appropriate gear (this may or may not have included O2 but it certainly would have included an ability to address exposure).
To sum up my armchair critique, the gap seems to be in the planning of the rescuers to provide for supportive care and a viable evacuation plan.
Edited to clarify.
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 23, 2009 - 03:46pm PT
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Survival of a victim in the case of the Aconcagua incident doesn't really depend on the rescuers or what ever.
If he was to really survive and live 1 guy in a jock strap could have shown up and that's all it would have taken.
If he was not to live a whole army of helicopters and 100 men completely outfitted with the best equipment would not have made any difference.
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Feb 23, 2009 - 04:41pm PT
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Here's the "low angle terrain" that Rokjox is ranting about. This is the top 1100 meters of the Polish Glacier route and the stranded party would have been found about a third of the way down and brought back up.
Yep, sure looks flat.
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