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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 14, 2007 - 03:15pm PT
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Dave Caunt,
Now there is a name I have not heard for a while.
Somewhere I have a picture of him and (Rob?) Settlemeyer putting up one of those routes on some nice gold rock, real edgy, maybe over by Ursula/Tune up.
Even back then things on Fairview were sometimes off the map, like Unh Huh & Unh Unh,
Jenny and I did both and there were full on cobwebs on one of them:
Lots of things fall out of fashion; here in Colorado, I have been seeking out old Kor routes in the high crags.
You get history, you get solitude, and you get to cover terrain you haven't seen before.
I like doing Museum climbs!
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 14, 2007 - 03:19pm PT
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JB wrote: Anyway, I'm not so sure a lot of these climbs are becoming museum pieces because they are runout - I think it's largely due to the painfulness of this type of climbing!
John...I think you are right. Slab climbing is so out of style for most of these new wave kids. Kinda of a shame. I really like it and continue to enjoy the mental and physical aspect of it.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 14, 2007 - 03:49pm PT
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Accusations aside, at least Joe provides counterpoint here; we are for the most part preaching to the choir on this trad based forum.
I'd bet, as Jan said, he sets really good routes, because I know he's a creative guy.
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 14, 2007 - 03:51pm PT
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Tar...calling someone a liar is not a counter point and adds nothing to the discussion.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 14, 2007 - 03:53pm PT
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I agree with you wholeheartedly Bob.
That's what I mean by accusations aside; his (Joe's) accusations.
I also find a lot of his counterpoint to be entrenched, stubborn, and it tends to attract the ire of some of us, who get stuck in a contentious loop with him, thereby sidelining the general tone of constructive dialogue. (And I am not really calling out anybody in particular here, such as k-mans' small jab just there, more a trend that shows up).
Sometimes things get messy; nothing new there.
Overall there has been a lot of good stuff on this particular thread, including some self-examination.
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Jello
Social climber
No Ut
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Sep 14, 2007 - 04:21pm PT
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Just skimmed through this latest re-hash of an ever-new debate. Have to say, Bachar nails it. Golsen, Tar and many others do, too. No absolutes - the communuity matters as well as the experience of the FA. Ergo, some routes will get maintained, some will be retro-bolted and then chopped, while others will be allowed to keep added bolts.
Climbing is best compared to art. There are no champions, just artists of different stripes. Reading between the lines, it sounds like even old jhedge is an artist, at least in an artificial sense.
The ultimate climbing experience for me? On-sight solo of major technical climbs in the high mountains, with difficulties on both rock and ice. Ties it all together, demanding everything in the name of art. Instant museum pieces. I've done a handful of them and they are my favorite works. Most have never been repeated, but they are my most lasting and meaningful contributions to climbing.
But I don't think Joe will understand!
-Jello
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 14, 2007 - 04:28pm PT
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Yeah Tar - those damn Settlemeyer - Caunt routes are effing serious. I can't believe the stances either. That hand drilling routine was down right brutal.
Hell, I did "Shadow of a Doubt" yesterday and even those "easy" stances are toe wrenchers. I remember on-sight soloing that thing in the early eighties but I was whimpering on the lead yesterday (too much sport climbing lately I guess).
You really got to be in good "edging" shape to deal with the Tuolumne slab stuff. I remember we used to make fun of "Slab Sheriffs" - now it turns out they were (are) masters of a truly demanding craft. If I were a sport climber I'd stay away from that stuff too! (I threw that in for our buddy Joe...)
heh heh, jb
Edit: I like your museum pieces Jeff - people will dig on them for decades to come!
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Sep 14, 2007 - 04:31pm PT
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Christ JB! Don't tell AlDude he has been onto something all these years or his head might explode from the flattery. AlDude quote: "if it touches the back of my hand, it ain't climbing"
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G_Gnome
Sport climber
Everywhere, man...
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Sep 14, 2007 - 05:44pm PT
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John, we went out to Hammer on Labor Day and did Shadow of a Doubt and Skeletor. Jesus were they hard! I did Skeletor twice and couldn't touch rock the next day my fingers were so sore. Even those of us that enjoy that kind of climbing admit that it hurts like hell. It takes a whole nother kind of mental strength to do them knowing how badly they are going to hurt.
I was disappointed to see Mystery Achievement still had old bolts. I will probably fix that next August if no one has taken care of it before then. Even still, I know that I am NEVER going to do the bottom of that route again, I am not even going to try. Talk about pain!
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bachar
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Sep 14, 2007 - 05:59pm PT
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G gnome - I've never even tried "Mystery Achievement". Never knew you did it! Good job - that thing is severe for the first fifteen to twenty feet.
If you go up there again this season, let me know - I'd be happy to help replace some of those routes (and put up a new one - I saw something!)...
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G_Gnome
Sport climber
Everywhere, man...
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Sep 14, 2007 - 06:05pm PT
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I will be in the Meadows the week of the 24th. Come on up, let's climb something. You can even bring your woman... if you want.
Waugh and I worked it in the mid 80s and I finally tagged it. 3rd ascent I think.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Sep 15, 2007 - 12:53am PT
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A lot of thoughtful things have been said on both sides of this debate. A few questions:
1) Since climbing can only be made "safer" and not "safe" who decides on what the acceptable threshold of safety is for a climb?
2) If retreat is possible off of a route, why isn't retreat an acceptable outcome when the climbing party encounters difficulties beyond their capabilities or risks they deem to be unacceptable? What are the responsibilities of climbers with regard to the routes?
3) What is the extent of the authority confered on the First Ascent team regarding a climb? Who confers it?
4) What is the extent of the authority confered on the local climbing community regarding climbs in that locality? How is the community constituted?
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Sep 15, 2007 - 01:05am PT
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1) Since climbing can only be made "safer" and not "safe" who decides on what the acceptable threshold of safety is for a climb?
The FA party first, then that loose thing called the local, and ideally locals only, community.
2) If retreat is possible off of a route, why isn't retreat an acceptable outcome when the climbing party encounters difficulties beyond their capabilities or risks they deem to be unacceptable? What are the responsibilities of climbers with regard to the routes?
Rather than leave a bail sling, it seems that the complainers will do it from afar, having never even tried the route, but can tell by the grade or style that it is not for them.
3) What is the extent of the authority confered on the First Ascent team regarding a climb? Who confers it?
Absolute, unless they botch it bad.
4) What is the extent of the authority confered on the local climbing community regarding climbs in that locality? How is the community constituted?
Absolute again, but you are using pretty big words for me, or at a minimum it ain't clear to me.
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Mike Bolte
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Sep 15, 2007 - 02:20am PT
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I'm with Peter - JB weighing in on these threads with humor, insight that few have and thoughtfulness is an incredible thing. Thanks, John
Since it has come up a couple of times, got to also tip a hat to Shadow of Doubt. Another class act.
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MisterE
Social climber
Across town from Easy Street
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Sep 15, 2007 - 02:34am PT
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Hey, Anders
I did the Grand wall with the gym rope, before the bolt ladder.
I was lucky enough to see it laid out on the ground, damn. It sure looked shorter than when I was bat-manning up it and clipping manky bolts!
Bump up to Greg Barnes and Co for all of the replacement work they have done.
Carry On,
Erik
Oh, and I did one of the final ascents of "Overly Hanging Out" with the upside down pins at the Lower Malamute before they were replaced with bolts.
BIG DIFFERENCE!!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Sep 15, 2007 - 03:05am PT
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Millesgården ?
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Sep 15, 2007 - 10:33am PT
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I suppose that is what is at issue. Some folks dont like others works of art, particularly a blank canvas.
Morning Edition, July 23, 2007 · A French museum was displaying a Cy Twombly painting. It might be the ultimate work of modern art: it's nine by six feet, untitled, and white. It's big white canvas, valued at $2 million. A woman named Sam Rindy kissed it. She left a lipstick stain, and got arrested. But she says, "I found the painting even more beautiful. The artist left this white for me."
Course lipstick will wash off and bolts are forever....
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bob d'antonio
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Sep 15, 2007 - 11:17am PT
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Golsen wrote: Course lipstick will wash off and bolts are forever....
Nothing is forever...except (Werner this is where you come in)...
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 15, 2007 - 11:57am PT
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Great set of Q's:
A few questions:
1) Since climbing can only be made "safer" and not "safe" who decides on what the acceptable threshold of safety is for a climb?
2) If retreat is possible off of a route, why isn't retreat an acceptable outcome when the climbing party encounters difficulties beyond their capabilities or risks they deem to be unacceptable? What are the responsibilities of climbers with regard to the routes?
3) What is the extent of the authority confered on the First Ascent team regarding a climb? Who confers it?
4) What is the extent of the authority confered on the local climbing community regarding climbs in that locality? How is the community constituted?
Russ nails it too.
On point 4, I think you're asking how responsible is the "local" community to the climbs in that community.
It's hard to go against the local community. They have the advantage of being there all the time, so they pretty much have the final say. If the attitude in the Meadows really changed and all the locals wanted to sport-bolt You Asked For It, resistance to that would be futile.
The lack of route maintenance has really begun to show itself in the past few years. 10 years ago, many 1/4" bolts felt pretty solid. Today, Yikes!! I think this is one reason slabs have slowly gone out of style, they've long been equated with long run-outs on crappy bolts.
As folks have picked up the deferred maintenance tab by going out and replacing hardware, the perception of the older routes is changing to the other direction. You can now look up to see if a route has had replaced hardware.
But there will always be insurgents who go against the grain and wreak their terrorists activities. I pity the fool who puts a bail bolt with a quick link half way up the B/Y, but how long would it take for anyone to notice if Guardians of the Galaxy sprouted a few extra bolts.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Sep 15, 2007 - 12:00pm PT
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Solitary Confinement, whew. What a beautiful blank canvas. Man, I appreciate that piece of art!
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