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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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In about '88 I onsight soloed the Sore thumb, didn't bring a rope. Had to downclimb afterward, scared the beejeezus out of me. And I had sticky rubber, '65? hoh man!
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Oli
Trad climber
Fruita, Colorado
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Nice to hear a few more praises sung for Bob Kamps, one of our all time great climbers and individuals.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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No one ever walked the walk better than Mr. Kamps! Top of my list for double sure. I am interested in just about any route that he did when I see his name on the FA.
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Since several of you say you can protect the horizontal seam with cams I see no reason to leave the pins in, they're just booty like any other piece of gear left behind. No need for the pins and no need for bolts, problem solved.
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jstan
climber
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OK Hammer
Now that you are getting expressions of opinion you ridicule those with whom you disagree.
How many times have I seen this kind of thing?
But back to the historical thread.
You all know that William Shockley with Bardeen and Brattain wrote the papers describing the invention of the transistor; that being the device ultimately allowing each of us to do what we do minute by minute through each day. (By the way those last two guys were no slouches, Bardeen for example getting two Nobels). And many of you are also aware Shockley, like Mr. Harding, said what he thought was right and did not give “a rat’s ass” whether anyone approved. Typical climber kind of thing, which he was.
Now I was not there myself when Shockley was climbing in the Gunks but I was told this by one who did climb with him. So this is second hand. After the day of climbing Shockley would usually go back to what would today be called a “bed and breakfast” and spend the entire night writing “Electrons and Holes in Semiconductors”. (This seminal book is very hard to get. The best I could do was an illegal knockoff printed in Taiwan in the 60’s.) Now if you think Shockley’s Ceiling was the most radical thing he did, you misjudge how boring it is to write a textbook, seminal or otherwise. He in fact would get entirely snockered, probably at Emile’s bar and grill and would then set off with a friend to climb by moonlight without a rope. Those of you who have climbed there realize the cliff is “pretty steep”. So in the dark you have only a certain amount of time in which to find a hold and then even after that you have only a certain amount of time in which you can use that hold. Now here is something of which many may not be aware. Wasps in eight inch diameter pancake nests also find the cliff a good place. If, in the dark, one would attempt to use one of these as a hold one might expect to face a fairly urgent situation. Suffice it to say, and here I try to repeat what was said by my source, “the world is as it is – quite by chance.”
Something to ponder.
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jstan
climber
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Sep 10, 2007 - 11:13pm PT
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I need to apologize to Hammer for that last post. Perhaps he did not realize the long and tragic history of what can follow when some one publicly suggests removing any kind of protection for “ethical” or “logical” reasons. Not that they themselves will remove it. Some one else may be stimulated to do so. Situations quickly go totally out of control with disastrous results.
I will repeat myself however, that when one asks for input you need to value all contributions very seriously. It is the people who disagree with you that teach you the most.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 11, 2007 - 12:51am PT
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Hammer- Let me get this straight. You were about to add a bolt to the classic route being discussed at length here because you don't like the piton and the other nearby abundant cam placements! And now you want to scarf the much celebrated pins too! Have a shred of respect and leave the route intact, troll, because its condition matters to people with far more sense than your own. Unnecessary bolts are an eyesore and no joke unlike your silly position.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Sep 11, 2007 - 02:04am PT
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There are other threads for this retrobolt- du jour debate between the crusties and the kids that know it all.
How about more bold needles stories? especially Kamps/Gill et al related?
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Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
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Sep 11, 2007 - 02:17am PT
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"...You all know that William Shockley with Bardeen and Brattain wrote the papers describing the invention of the transistor; that being the device ultimately allowing each of us to do what we do minute by minute through each day. (By the way those last two guys were no slouches, Bardeen for example getting two Nobels). And many of you are also aware Shockley, like Mr. Harding, said what he thought was right and did not give “a rat’s ass” whether anyone approved. Typical climber kind of thing, which he was..."
Bardeen got two? Jesus, Germer really got screwed.
Curt
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Sep 11, 2007 - 10:30am PT
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I have ridiculed no one, on the contrary I have thanked everyone for their input.
Many of you have described ways to do the route other than the way the FA did it (adding cams, slinging knobs, etc.) so none of you have really followed the route in the style of the FA. If you're not going to climb it the way they did why keep it in its original state? This 'ethic' is turning the Needles into a museum with routes to look at rather than climb.
You are all dismissing the fact that the man responsible for the first ascent wants the pins replaced with bolts. I believe he is concerned about a dangerous route that he is responsible for and would like to make the route more reasonable for future climbers. I think you should respect his wishes.
There is a place for routes that require the climber to risk life or death, the Needles Eye should not be one of them.
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Prod
Social climber
Charlevoix, MI
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Sep 11, 2007 - 10:45am PT
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What happened to this Hammer?
"Since several of you say you can protect the horizontal seam with cams I see no reason to leave the pins in, they're just booty like any other piece of gear left behind. No need for the pins and no need for bolts, problem solved."
This is just getting back to some great history. For the love of god man, back off a bit or start another thread, I think one was started for you use that one.
Prod.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 11, 2007 - 11:11am PT
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Hammer did make an interesting point that made me think about this problem we are now facing every day in climbing areas around the country.
"This 'ethic' is turning the Needles into a museum with routes to look at rather than climb."
It seams this was also the core argument/idea that weschrist was trolling a while ago also?
Are "we" the so called "old guys" unconsciously trying to "overprotect" the past?
Another point hammer made "There is already a disconnect with the experience of the first ascent, they weren't clipping bolts that had been there for forty years."
How many of you would go out and clip 40 year old bolts and do the death run out with no feeling of "Oh sh'it I'm gonna die now feeling?".
Sometimes it does seem that "the old skool is making museum climbs which nobody can climb anymore?
On the other hand the young guys that have been coming all these years have been doping incredibly hard scary ass sh'it,
that will make any seasoned hard man piss in his pants just standing at the base.
Just some thoughts of mine, so don't go ape sh'it over them.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 11, 2007 - 11:23am PT
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Hammer- How about being direct and asking if rgold agrees with you or anyone else indiscriminately adding unnecessary bolts to routes in the Needles based on whim ,fright or whatever it is that drives your actions. Go ahead and drill fool but they will be removed on principle, you will have scarred and blemished the stone and your name is mud. What is your actual name anyway just in case I do visit the Needles so that I can inquire after you? If you aren't straight enough to disclose your identity, that would confirm the troll.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2007 - 02:31pm PT
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Every time it looks like this discussion might go away, it springs back Phoenix-like from the ashes of the flogged dead horse. So be it then...
I for one feel no inclination to "go ape shit" over Werner's comments, which raise a genuine issue for the climbing community, which for years has been moving away from a risk ethic to a pure difficulty ethic, although certainly not in a uniform way.
As far as the Needles are concerned, I think the idea that they are being turned into a "museum" with "routes to look at rather than climb" is an extreme perspective that does not reflect reality. The "museum," if that's what it is, has a handful of routes out of hundreds and hundreds. Whether a few exceptional cases are worth preserving for those who would like to experience the challenges these routes present is all that is under discussion. There is no question of turning the whole area into an archive of routes unavailable to the general climbing public, and couching the discussion in such terms is misleading and inflammatory, and so only serves the purposes of those who wish to cloud the issue with essentially irrelevant emotion.
I might add, however, that the "rights" of those who aspire to repeating the challenges of bold routes are almost always ignored when discussions about retrofitting routes take place. Apparently, such individuals do not count anymore.
Even if a few routes in the Needles do qualify as "museum pieces," it can hardly be argued that the Needle's Eye is among them. The route has been climbed over and over by climbers from all over the world, it is guided by the Exum guides, and although not every leader will want to do it, it is hardly restricted to the mythical bold fanatics of some previous heroic era. Consequently, as true and as important as Werner's observation is, I don't think it is relevant to the Needle's Eye discussion.
So then, as far as the Needle's Eye goes, the issues raised by Hammer are quite restricted.
First, if it is indeed true that the current protection is 40 years old, than as Bob has already remarked, no one can question the need to upgrade at what is already there, and this is all that Hammer has ever proposed. We are not speaking here of adding bolts to formerly unprotected sections.
It is the nature of "upgrading" that is the issue. The possibilities are
1. Replace old pins with newer ones.
2. Replace old pins with bolts.
3. Remove all fixed pro and use modern gear.
I think most people would agree that if option 3 is genuinely viable, then it is certainly the preferable one. This returns the route to its original state and presents potential leaders with something like the original dilemma, eliminating the mentality of "going for" the fixed pro one knows is up there. However, if the modern gear is going to be questionable or if it will require great sophistication to place effectively, then one might argue that this is much too demanding an "upgrade."
As for the choice between pins and bolts or perhaps Steve's ingenious solutions, there are arguments on all sides, and my oft-stated opinion is that the answer should come from a concensus of local climbers, with "local" broadly interpreted.
So the issue really is who should decide among these options, and how should the decision be reached. My opinion is that Hammer, by virtue of the attitude of superiority he's displayed here, his preference for polemics, his inclination to justify with half-truths, his dismissal of other interested local parties, and his impatience with genuine discussion in spite of his call for it, has just about disqualified himself from the job.
But it is not only true that folks can change, it is also true that many people come off very differently online than they are in person, so it is possible to hope that, perhaps after some off-line moments of reflection, Hammer may find himself able to be a catalyst for the real discussion that needs to happen, a discussion that I think should be centered in the Needles community (the real community, not anyone's restrictive definition of it). That discussion, and not the one here, is the appropriate place to resolve this and similar questions about Needles routes.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 12, 2007 - 03:58pm PT
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That's a cogent statement there rgold: very refreshing.
Well done.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Sep 12, 2007 - 04:19pm PT
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Chiloe
Trad climber
Lee, NH
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Sep 12, 2007 - 04:22pm PT
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Richard has maintained a level tone throughout, despite much needling by "Hammer." Every one of his posts has been thoughtful and worth reading.
I would disagree on one point, however. By its architecture, location and boldness the Needle's Eye really is among the handful of iconic Needles routes, in the same cultural if not difficulty class as Superpin, the Thimble and a small handful of others. Moreover, the protection in that horizontal crack has, from the first ascent onwards, been central to the climb's character.
All the more reason to seek a real consensus, not just among someone's friends, before trying to make any changes. Otherwise a bolt war, messing up one of the Needles' most classic routes, seems the most likely legacy. Meanwhile, nobody has to climb this R-rated route if they don't like its current state of protection.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 12, 2007 - 08:03pm PT
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Well said Rich. I took offense at implied and tacit approval for foolishness being claimed by fiat in the absence of "historical ownership."
What would a list of the twenty wildest (and not necessarily lethal) routes in the Needles look like. Certainly the Needles Eye and the Barber and Cleveland variations on the Kingpin would be three. Sore Thumb is four. Which others would make the list?
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Hammer
Social climber
Custer, SD
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Sep 12, 2007 - 10:13pm PT
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I have thought about the rights of those who would aspire to repeat the challenges of the bold routes...and I have witnessed many dozens of leads on the route over the past twenty plus years. In not even one case have I seen a 5.8 leader lead the route... those who aspire to lead the Eye have always been climbers comfortable leading .10's and harder.
When you are leading two or three levels easier than your comfort level I don't think you're getting the full flavor of the FA, but I didn't witness the FA so maybe I'm mistaken.
Before one of you asks, I first led the route at a time when 5.8 was about as hard as I could climb, but, I had followed the route twice before so I didn't really appreciate what the FA was really like either.
As for option #3, We're talking about a flaring seam, not a crack. I don't believe it can be protected adequately with gear but I will take another look with some gear in hand to be sure.
The 'real' local community has had plenty of opportunity to join this discussion but they have not. That says a lot about their sense of superiority.
Thanks for your input Rich, I still don't understand why so many people are so reluctant to discuss this stuff.
Steve, you could have clicked on my handle at any time, emailed me and requested my name or just done a whois search. Its not like its really hidden.
WBraun's 'Museum climbs?' thread has people discussing this topic rationally...maybe because its not talking about a specific route?
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 29, 2007 - 03:59pm PT
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A tidbit from Richard DuMais' Great American Rock Climbs 1995. The area classic by his estimation.
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