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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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I have been to lots of wine shows around the west with my friend's winery, Michal David. He always supports local wineries in the area we are at be it Colorado or Idaho and the wineries from our area (Lodi). Lots of good wine out there.
Wayno, let me know next time there is a big wine show up there and i will introduce you.
I still prefer beer over wine.
Favorite wine quote "without beer there would be no wine" David Philips
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Yeah I served up some Barton & Gustier 08 Vouvray the other night. It was just fine.
Really good Vouvray will age for decades. Absolutely amazing stuff.
But back to Mtnmun's request for an expanation of my comment that Robert Parker has ruined wine...
The best way I can explain it is via a climbing metaphor. Think about the climbing world of 25 years ago. Thousands of little areas scattered all over the world, with millions of climbs on different kinds of rock, put up in different styles. Slabs. Cracks. Limestone edges. Frozen waterfalls. Granite. Bolted sport climbs. Death choss. Alpine strolls and alpine nightmares. Some are really good, some are unarguably crappy. But what the hell -- you like overhanging face climbs, I like long moderate crack lines, she likes ice, and he likes hard aid. Something for everyone. And no matter how much you climb, there is still more different stuff out there than you can climb in a lifetime.
Now, imagine that someone comes along and says: "Hmmm. Lotta noobs out there who don't know where to climb or what kind of climbing is worth doing, so I'll start publishing notes that will help them avoid wasting their valuable vacation time. I'll give the kind of climbing I think is worth doing many stars, so people will know what is worth their time and effort.
Now, in climbing terms, it would end there. Lots of guidebooks out there have star ratings, but other than causing line-ups on some climbs, it doesn't really affect things much. The fact that some writer prefers slabs to cracks, or thinks sport climbing is stupid, hasn't really had that much impact.
But in the world of wine, the impact was huge. Parker, through his original "Baltimore Wine Advocate" newsletter, was the first to offer a numerical grading system to rate the quality of wines. For whatever reason -- probably a desire by Americans to feel sophisticated -- it caught on, and over the next couple of decades it became huge. People with no knowledge of wine felt that if they bought the highest-rated wine they could afford (whether $10 or $100) they were getting the "best" wine for the price.
This pushed up sales of wines with high Parker ratings.
Now that, in itself, is no bad thing. Giving Crimson Chrysalis 3 stars had the negative effect of directing hordes of people onto that route, making it a much less pleasant experience, but had the positive effect of ensuring that you could have Ginger Cracks (on the next buttress) to yourself. And Ginger Cracks is arguably a better climb, so you could say the star system worked in favor of people who appreciated better climbs.
But what if Ginger Cracks was a product? The manufacturer would look at the success of his competitor, and say: "Shit! CC is getting all the traffic. I'm going to remake Ginger Cracks so it climbs just like CC. Then more people will want to climb it."
And pretty soon, climbs everywhere will become more and more the same, as their owners chisel and dynamite them to match the climbs that some guru has given the highest ratings.
Okay, that's not going to happen with climbs, but it has happened with wine. An entire industry has developed based on the concept of improving a winery's Parker score. Consultants are brought in, chemists are hired, additives are added, oak chips are weighed and measured...
And wines become more and more and more the same. Jammy, oaky, manipulated products. Yes, "products."
In a way, it reminds me of the death-spiral of beer in the US, as a few giants with big advertising budgets convinced drinkers that the less beer tasted of anything, the better it was. Thirty-odd years ago the rebellion against that corporate blandness started up, and today we have the wonderful West Coast beer renaissance that makes this the best place in the world to be a beer drinker.
Fortunately, there are still winemakers who care about making wine they actually like, rather than MacWine that will get 5 more Parker points and therefore sell better in Safeway or Trader Joe; and wine drinkers and a few wine merchants who love the quality and variety that Parkerization destroys.
So, yes, Robert Parker, for all his good intentions, has almost destroyed wine. In the end, I don't think he will succeed, but it's a scary thought.
My $0.02 on the subject.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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Thanks Ghost, that was well written and educational as well. So I assume the Parker rating is what Wine Spectator scores are all about. As a consumer I sometimes will purchase based on that rating if I am not familiar with the winery. Other times, I just know what I like.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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^^^
^^^
Well said, David.
^^^
Jeff, that is a real cool painting. It would make a nice label.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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My homie is bringing me a magnum of 2000 Petrus from London. I'll bring it to the next Facelift.
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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O.K. here's a tip for you. Palazzo Della Torre from the Veneto. The maker is Allegrini, a respectable producer, and you can get it at Costco. I think it would appeal to the the West Coast palette and it is usually around fiddeen bucks. Give it a try, you might be pleasantly surprised.
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selfish man
Gym climber
Austin, TX
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Yep, I've bought it at Costco before, guided by Parker's score of 90, relative to its price (Damn you Parker). It's good.
O.K. here's a tip for you. Palazzo Della Torre from the Veneto. The maker is Allegrini, a respectable producer, and you can get it at Costco. I think it would appeal to the the West Coast palette and it is usually around fiddeen bucks. Give it a try, you might be pleasantly surprised.
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rurprider
Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
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Silver Oak and Kendall-Jackson are hard to beat. A bit pricier than Jude's Lake Sonoma '02, but well worth the $$.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Ghost,
Well said. But methinks the issue is that many or most people are unwilling
to do anything on their own including educating their palates. It is far
easier to Tweet your palate especially if it impresses your dinner guests.
"Ooo, la-la, Ten-Buck Tuck! We are sooo honneured!"
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selfish man
Gym climber
Austin, TX
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Likewise, everyone should learn laws of gravity from firsthand experience by jumping off a cliff. Books single handedly ruin knowledge
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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But methinks the issue is that many or most people are unwilling
to do anything on their own including educating their palates.
There's certainly some of that. Same as with climbing -- a lot of people think routes come from guidebooks, and they can't even imagine going to a crag or a mountain without a guidebook (or printouts from MP or ST). And that's fine. But there's sure a lot more to climbing than ticking routes on some other person's "Best Of" list. Those willing to put down their guidebooks will find a wealth of experience waiting for them.
As to wine, well, there's nothing wrong with Parker doing what he did. And nothing wrong with many people never exploring beyond Parker scores (or Wine Spectator scores). The problem is that so many winemakers, particularly in the US, but also now in Italy, France, Chile, Argentina, and Australia, are making wine with the goal of high Parker scores, rather than with the goal of making wine that comes from their particular patch of earth.
D
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selfish man
Gym climber
Austin, TX
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Interesting point about RP influencing winemakers. May well be true. Then again, it doesn't take Parker to start a trend. Just look at the whole Napa phenomenon: consistently overpriced wines that are all alike, most getting deservedly poor ratings from RP yet having a huge following.
Another point is that wine making is often much more constrained not by the critics' tastes but by strict appellation regulations. Multiple French classification systems all insure you get what you expect, not something different even if different potentially means good. Much experimentation and exciting new development happen outside the classified chateaus and, if anything, Parker is responsible for bringing those more obscure and interesting wines to our attention, making winemaking more democratic...
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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We really enjoyed the Ancient Peaks Cab out of Paso Robles last night. For $17.00 it was a prize.
Here is my painting of Loma Prieta Winery in the Santa Cruz Mountains, on the cover of a recent issue of Wine and Travel Magazine.
Also on Burrell School's Old School Cabernet:
Cheers, Jude
http://www.judebischoff.com
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Calabasas
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Cielo is a local Malibu wine. Good stuff.
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Favorite wine quote "without beer there would be no wine" David Philips
Interesting quote. I wonder what he meant. I get a few things coming to mind but since Philips is a winemaker I'm kinda curious as to what he is getting at.
The guys I drink wine with are all in the business of selling wine and most of them specifically Italian wines. Ghost is the only exception. We just share similar tastes. About half of them are or were in kitchens and a different half is actually from Italy. Once in a while, someone who drinks mostly domestic wines will show up at one of our gatherings and get pleasantly schooled.
I feel sorry for some of them because they now know they love Italian wine but are totally confused as to what to look for. Out of the 2500 grape varieties claimed as native by the Italians, only half of them have been DNA typed to certify that they are indeed distinct. 600 of those are grown commercially and then you factor in the blends, which Italians love to do and they are good at it and you have a lot of variety. Compare that to France where 99% of the wines are from 15 varieties or California where 99% are from maybe 10 varieties and you can see how confusing it can get. Add to that a totally confusing labeling morass and wow, no wonder people don't drink more Italian wine, the learning curve is impossible.
See, now even I am bored. I could go on and on but I don't like to do that unless I know someone is interested, so if anyone wants to know more, please speak up.
The most important thing I can say about Italian wine is food. I don't know how many wines I have been ambivalent about by themselves that were superb with the right food. And that is why Italians wines tend to be more acidic on the palette Than domestic stuff. We drink a lot more without considering food.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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See, now even I am bored. I could go on and on but I don't like to do that unless I know someone is interested, so if anyone wants to know more, please speak up.
And therein is nub of this thread. Ditto for threads on "What's the best beer?", "Who's the best guitar player?" or any of the dozens of other "best of" threads.
People post variations on "I love [wine name]. It's the best frickin' wine on the planet." What does that mean? How many wines has this poster drunk? Is s/he someone who really should have said "I've been drinking wine for all of three months now, and don't know sh#t, and my opinion isn't worth anything but I'm going to post anyway"?
Look at Wayne's posts. He's been dealing with wine professionally for ever, and yet never says he knows what is best, or that his favorite should be everyone's favorite.
Personally, I'd be happy to hear more.
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Steve L
Gym climber
SUR
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Interesting quote. I wonder what he meant.
When I worked in production, we used to throw that quote around often. We drank a lot of beer at the winery. Usually at the end of the day, but sometimes during our shift too; especially when a long crush season day turned to night. Nursing a beer was a good way to pass the time while you waited for one of your tanks to pump over. A 40oz with a burrito from the Mexican market in town was a pretty common lunch too. Yup, beer helps make lots of good wine!
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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^^^
That makes sense. I thought it was something a bit more esoteric.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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^^^^
With a twist -- I was drinking wine while making beer yesterday.
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